This woman is all of us.

[CAAKE]

Lily Madigan speaking to a rapt audience at an Enfield North CLP meeting.

Photo is from this tweet -
twitter.com/enfieldnorthclp/status/964240546977013760

Doesn't respect go both ways? Lily constantly uses the term 'cis', sometimes as an insult (the Down with Cis web page). 'Cis' is a term that many women vocally reject and find offensive for several reasons. Lily obviously doesn't care about this and continues to force the term upon women, so I'm struggling to see why people should be expected to refer to Lily as 'she'?

Obviously we are supposed to take the high road otherwise we are just as bad as them etc, but actually there comes a time to say 'no, enough'.

And that's all aside from the fact that 'he' is the correct biological term for Lily.

Look MNHQ - if LM was actually transitioned with a GRC or transitioning and taking hormones I would believe you have a point.

However neither of these scenarios are true (as confirmed by LM on Radio 4).

This issue is at the heart of the debate.

Why does any man get to decide to be a woman just because they want/feel to on any given day of the week?

Self ID is not enshrined in law (yet) and using "preferred" pronouns for people who are not (and seemingly have no intention of) transitioning is actually a way of using language to support their assertions and validate their "right" to usurp woman's rights.

Just curious, can you report a post without being logged in...?

Cause if not, it's looking like the Twitter/fb mass reporting by TRAs that happens.

Doesn't matter to me, I do my absolute best not to use personal pronouns at least as I know the rules. But yeah... curious.

I am not buying into this individual's narcissistic delusion of being a woman. If I call Madigan 'she' I am not only stating something that is factually untrue, but also endorsing Madigan's wider project. Won't do it.

Ah, MNHQ.

Mnhq if you keep pulling these threads that's very misogynistic. Don't no platform us please

MNHQ respecting other people's choices is different from colluding with them and, in a democracy, everybody's choices can be challenged.

There is an intrinsic contradiction in your statement - saying you will allow posts that align with scientific orthodoxy, but will delete posts that refer to transwomen without a GRC as male (which IS scientific orthodoxy) makes no rational sense!

It's like a religious schism. One person's misgendering is another person's missexing. I know what reality looks like so I know I'm not on the side of transubstantiation.

Additionally, I don't see that LM has done a single thing that merits respect from women. Quite the opposite.

That said, I will not use pronouns at all when referring to LM in future.

To be clear - our Talk Guidelines are our only guide. We're not specifying which pronouns must be used - not our remit. But if you're using pronouns to inflame or provoke, or to be deliberately uncivil, we'll have to delete, and suspend if it doesn't stop.

We can't control what goes on beyond the site, but we'll apply the same TGs here - if it's goady or inflammatory, it's not on.

As many of you have noted in the past, Mumsnet is unusual in that we try hard to let the conversation flow. We'd like to continue to do so. It takes a lot of time and energy, though, which one could argue should be spread more equitably across the site - so please be pragmatic.

I avoid pronouns whilst discussing LM.

Can I suggest new shiny pronouns 'El' 'Les' and 'Lem', then?

'El needs to pay more attention to les actual Woman's Officer role rather than banging on about how people are nasty to lem.'

Works for me.

We're not specifying which pronouns must be used - not our remit. But if you're using pronouns to inflame or provoke, or to be deliberately uncivil, we'll have to delete, and suspend if it doesn't stop.

Please could you clarify what that means? If a poster is otherwise civil, not goady, refers to the person in question by their chosen name, BUT always uses their biological pronouns, because they're rejecting the ideology that men can literally become women? Is that not okay?

The Orwellian shift in language is frightening, tbh, and I think it's pretty fucking important to reject the DEMAND that we must ALWAYS use a person's preferred pronouns.

I'm not going to refer to Lily using female pronouns. It would be a lie. I'm happy to use preferred pronouns as a polite fiction - a courtesy towards people who are courteous towards me in return. Lily isn't. Lily is a misogynist.

Best I can do is avoid using Lily's pronouns every time I want to mention Lily. Even that feels like pandering to an ideology I strongly oppose.

Best I can do is avoid using Lily's pronouns every time I want to mention Lily. Even that feels like pandering to an ideology I strongly oppose.

And you can bet your arse people using genderless pronouns will be the next on the list. Slippery slope.

Mandating people to lie isn't okay, MNHQ.

Do we have to call Danielle Muscavato "she" when he tells us to "suck his dick" if we disagree with him?

I don't use (capitalised) He when I refer to the Christian God because I don't believe in him.

Isn't this the same thing?

@DarthArts

Do we have to call Danielle Muscavato "she" when he tells us to "suck his dick" if we disagree with him?

Think this is a bit of a straw man. If that comment happened on MN, we'd delete it and ban, Darth, so it's unlikely to arise.

@TerfyTheCuntingTerf

If a poster is otherwise civil, not goady, refers to the person in question by their chosen name, BUT always uses their biological pronouns, because they're rejecting the ideology that men can literally become women? Is that not okay?

I think we'd consider that pretty goady. Look, this is tough - we're trying hard not to lay down rigid rules beyond our TGs. We don't believe that if we do so, it will be the best outcome in terms of free speech - but it may come to that. As I said upthread, I think pragmatism should be the watchword for all.

Wow, not a twitter user generally but have been following links on here as I am fascinated by the subject and so far haven't dared raise it amongst my (mostly liberal like me) friends and family.

Imagine my surprise that one of the first few comments on the twitter thread is my DSis, saying exactly what I think about the whole thing.

I guess maybe it's time to stick my head above the parapet after all.

I'll just use 'Li' in future (can't bring myself to use 'Lily' because it's a lovely name for a girl/woman).

So now MNHQ might not allow posts which align with scientific orthodoxy ?!

I think we'd consider that pretty goady. Look, this is tough - we're trying hard not to lay down rigid rules beyond our TGs. We don't believe that if we do so, it will be the best outcome in terms of free speech

How is that not a rigid rule? You're demanding that people lie. And clearly you are specifying what pronouns people use if it's 'goady' to use accurate biological pronouns in an otherwise civil post.

Really really not okay, MN. So much for free speech

Fuck. Every time I start to feel more positive about the threat to women's rights and how people are being silenced something like this happens and I'm sick to my stomach again. I was proud to be a member of Mumsnet earlier.

Yambabe what a happy coincidence. Go for it!