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Original poster

This woman is all of us.

6 replies

CAAKE · 17/02/2018 02:58

Lily Madigan speaking to a rapt audience at an Enfield North CLP meeting.

Photo is from this tweet -
twitter.com/enfieldnorthclp/status/964240546977013760

This woman is all of us.
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MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 09:44

Hi folks - a reminder about our rules, as we've had lots of reports about this thread.

We allow the debate about issues relating to transgender to take place on Mumsnet to the degree to which folks stick within our Talk Guidelines. This means that we will delete posts that we feel are inflammatory, provocative, amount to goady fuckery or are just plain uncivil or unkind.

We appreciate that there are discussions to be had about biology and the nature of what it is to be a woman, and to that end we allow posts which align with scientific orthodoxy and which are in the spirit of genuine, civil debate. But we do think that repeatedly referring to someone by a pronoun they've rejected is both goady and inflammatory. We're going to go back now and delete those posts - it will leave big holes, which is a pain for everyone.

Please do bear this in mind from now on - we don't want to have to take further action but if we must, we must.

Cheers
MNHQ

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 09:55

It may do, Wisterical - and in the context of a scientific debate, we might pause. Otherwise, basic civility demands that we respect others' choices.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 10:23

To be clear - our Talk Guidelines are our only guide. We're not specifying which pronouns must be used - not our remit. But if you're using pronouns to inflame or provoke, or to be deliberately uncivil, we'll have to delete, and suspend if it doesn't stop.

We can't control what goes on beyond the site, but we'll apply the same TGs here - if it's goady or inflammatory, it's not on.

As many of you have noted in the past, Mumsnet is unusual in that we try hard to let the conversation flow. We'd like to continue to do so. It takes a lot of time and energy, though, which one could argue should be spread more equitably across the site - so please be pragmatic.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 11:18

@DarthArts

Do we have to call Danielle Muscavato "she" when he tells us to "suck his dick" if we disagree with him?

Think this is a bit of a straw man. If that comment happened on MN, we'd delete it and ban, Darth, so it's unlikely to arise.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 11:21

@TerfyTheCuntingTerf

If a poster is otherwise civil, not goady, refers to the person in question by their chosen name, BUT always uses their biological pronouns, because they're rejecting the ideology that men can literally become women? Is that not okay?

I think we'd consider that pretty goady. Look, this is tough - we're trying hard not to lay down rigid rules beyond our TGs. We don't believe that if we do so, it will be the best outcome in terms of free speech - but it may come to that. As I said upthread, I think pragmatism should be the watchword for all.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 12:15

@BeyondTerfyCassandra

Kate, I think Darth was referring to Muscato's IWD post which said "suck my dick" and whether we must call Muscato by Muscatos preferred pronouns when discussing it. Though I'd like some sort of pager to go off should Muscato ever come to Mn! Grin

Aha yes I see Grin - though see below.

@BeyondTerfyCassandra

I don't think mn have changed any rules here - it's been okay to use sexed pronouns when talking in about transpeople general, but not when talking about a specific individual for a while. With there then being flexibility as to how strictly it's enforced when talking about rapists etc.

I guess the issue here is that LM's misogyny and narcissistic behaviour puts them in the "bad person" category for some (I know it's not that simple of course - I am simplifying) so they feel it should be okay, whereas for mn the line is that LM is not a criminal so "misgendering" isn't okay under the possible criminal-flexibility rule.

Beyond, this seems like a good general upsum. Again, must stress that we think our TGs cover all of this - and that it's in the interests of those who wish to discuss this issue not to press for a rigid line.

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