Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This woman is all of us.

412 replies

CAAKE · 17/02/2018 02:58

Lily Madigan speaking to a rapt audience at an Enfield North CLP meeting.

Photo is from this tweet -
twitter.com/enfieldnorthclp/status/964240546977013760

This woman is all of us.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Thisusernamethingistricky · 20/02/2018 13:05

This 'misgendering' thing is odd isn't it? Has there ever been a movement before that insists that you must refer to someone as something that they objectively are not? Otherwise it's 'hate speech'? And the whole thing is completely legitimate? I don't think I can think of any? It certainly didn't happen in the gay rights movement.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 20/02/2018 13:06

And I always used to be fine about using 'correct pronouns please' as they say. Because those people weren't harming anyone and deserved to be treated with respect.

hackmum · 20/02/2018 13:10

*Thisusernamethingistricky: "Has there ever been a movement before that insists that you must refer to someone as something that they objectively are not?"

I don't think so. The only analogy I can think of is sometimes with religious people (not all religious people, obvs) when they insist you accept their version of reality. So you nod politely instead of saying, "Oh, ffs, that's absolutely ridiculous."

Thisusernamethingistricky · 20/02/2018 13:13

I don't think so. The only analogy I can think of is sometimes with religious people (not all religious people, obvs) when they insist you accept their version of reality. So you nod politely instead of saying, "Oh, ffs, that's absolutely ridiculous."

Yes, religion was the only thing I could think of as well. However, religious indoctrination outside of the religion itself is generally frowned upon. Particularly by liberal types ironically!

MrPan · 20/02/2018 13:13

Or royalty? Where kings and queens claimed to be the incarnate of God's word on earth.

Something like that seems relevant.....

SimonBridges · 20/02/2018 13:21

See I’m seeing both side here. I see how some people have been saying he etc which has been goady. However I don’t like being told that I have to be polite to someone who wouldn’t show me the same respect.

TerfyTheCuntingTerf · 20/02/2018 14:24

I am beginning to think that MN has been warned/threatened with legal action by TIMs/MRAs.

We live in a society of free speech. Not some Orwellian, dystopian nightmare.

This is what I think too. The timeline looks pretty obvious to me. That article by James Kirkup comes out, Mumsnet starts to get a bit of a name for itself as being a place where this is being debated, and almost immediately several threads pop up and there's a general influx of posters who seem to be sealioning. I notice the sealioning has pretty much stopped now, which doesn't surprise me at all, since it's a terrible tactic when you're facing a group of people with rational facts and reason, who are happy to call for rational debate and non-biased research, while pretty much the only argument the sealioners have boils down to: 'stop being mean'.

The sea-lioning's stopped, and I suspect their tactics have shifted to reporting posts and targeting the site itself. Has there been a massive uptick in complaints about posts/threads, MNHQ? And if you have been threatened with legal action or have legal concerns, then some transparency here would be appreciated, if only because knowing that's the case would go a long way towards clarifying how the law is already affecting our lives.

Seeing the way this issue has been treated in the media, and how effectively the gender critical viewpoint has been silenced is genuinely frightening. In particular the story that keeps sticking in my craw, and which gives me the fucking shivers, is the way the Guardian et all misrepresented Marie Dean's vile sexual crimes as 'a string of burglaries'. It's a misrepresentation of the facts that can only have been deliberately intended to mislead.

So can you understand why people are upset about what seems like an attempt to stifle free speech and expecting us to tow the ideological line? Language is important: it's only a short step from insisting we use 'correct' pronouns, to insisting that 'they' and 'them' isn't acceptable either, and then that we have to accept 'trans women are women'.

MNHQ - I can see you are in difficulties. I don't wish to add to them but, as AngryAttackKittens said on another thread, I think most of us here have reached the point where any capitulation is tantamount to negotiating with terrorists. I hope you can see that many of us aren't prepared to do this.

^Agree absolutely with this from @LangCleg. They've already proven if we give an inch, they'll take a mile.

I'll be sticking with 'they' and 'them' (actually think that's what I was doing anyway), but I suspect that won't be enough either soon.

Ereshkigal · 20/02/2018 14:26

I'm a long-term very gender-critical feminist and I don't agree with Mumsnet's misgendering policy but I'm still grateful to Mumsnet for facilitating the discussions around transgenderism.

That's pretty much my position too. I will not refer to them as she though. I will avoid pronouns entirely for trans people.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/02/2018 14:34

TSSDNCOP.

Not sure where it stands on divulging if an angry teenager has got its pro bono panties in a bunch.

See how I did 'its' - can I do 'its'??

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 20/02/2018 15:17

Quite disappointing to see this. I thought the guidelines wer basically..you can 'misgender' (I call it accurate sexing tbh) UNLESS talking TO the transperson. In which case politeness should be used. I remember the whole Ada Wells thing, wasn't this part of the reason for the spartacus threads in the first place?

Elletorro · 20/02/2018 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 15:34

I'll just stick to LM or HWSNBN

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 15:36

I feel for MN as I think they are between a rock and a hard place. And do an extent I think they are trying to protect our ability to debate.

I have reported a few posts about Lily, as much as it pains me to do it, simply because they were about appearance or really personal and unnecessary. They were just nasty.

I don't think it helps to get wound up by it, and I do believe to an extent that its a deliberate ploy to try and do exactly that, in order to be able to play the victim card. People are getting sucked into the trap.

We do need to count to ten regardless of how much lack of respect we are shown in return.

I try not to attack Lily. Instead I try and focus on the argument not the person as much as possible and take a deep breathe and step back.

Everytime you bite on a personal level, you actually validate Lily's sense of purpose and victimhood. You are giving attention. Think about it. Lily WANTS you to get upset, and to react badly.

Think about how your comments can be taken out of context when you make them. If they don't have an actual point to them beyond being upset/venting anger, do you need to post it?

Think about the purpose of what you are posting.

As for gender and 'misgendering'. I try not to refer to gender at all as I'm not at all comfortable with going along with the lie. I think doing so normalises it, and I do not wish to be part of it, as I see there are political problems in doing so. It inadvertently is a surrender. But I do see why this puts MN in an awkward position from a legal position.

All that said I do think its a matter of perspective and context and MN does need to think about that rather than blanket ban 'misgendering'. Its about power and how it is imposed on others and how this is being used against women at times in an abusive way. You only have to read the TransWidows thread to get a sense of that. We have been forced into a corner and have to act with care so we preserve what little free speech we have left.

But I do say this; If we completely lose the ability to call out male violence against women as what it is then we lose our ability to identify abuse and sexism as what it is. At the heart of this is the idea that if you are transwomen you can't be sexist. Which is nonsense, you can very obviously be sexist (and by the same token, you can also be a sexist woman). And yes being trans does not mean you are automatically an ally of LGB either. I do believe that at times, 'misgendering' is perhaps actively warranted, but it needs to be done sparingly and in context.

I think about what is necessary and what takes it too far. Is calling Lily, really Liam necessary? (Unless its about pointing out the absurdity of the 'deadnamed' PayPal account.) Is questioning Heather Peto about the legitimacy of their position on the Jo Cox programme because they were previously Warren Peto and the programme is to give people who otherwise might not have a chance an opportunity and the confidence and skills to stand for election.

If we really are against gender stereotyping and gender as a social construct and how we react differently to the assumed sex of a name then think about who Marion Mitchell Morrison was, why he changed his name and what his occupation was.

As I say, what is the point you are trying to make, apart from being personal?

I think its shit we are having to do this, but part of it, is because MN can only regulate what's on site and not what's off site. I do think they are trying to protect the debate for us all, so it's more difficult for the likes of Lily to come after them for hosting 'hate speech'.

If you do want to go further, you can do so elsewhere and through other avenues.

If you don't think I'm angry, you do not know the half of it. I just think we need to use our rage wisely. Don't squander the power we do have by acting rashly.

No easy solution here.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 15:57

Articulate post Red as ever.

I see your point entirely but I can't help feeling like we are being expected to participate in a high stakes game as the only entrant being expected to play by the rules....

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 20/02/2018 15:58

I think about what is necessary and what takes it too far. Is calling Lily, really Liam necessary? (Unless its about pointing out the absurdity of the 'deadnamed' PayPal account.)

I don't think calling Lily Liam is necessary at all and tbh I do eyeroll a bit when people do it. Was the same with George Osbourne when people insisted on calling him Gideon.

Is questioning Heather Peto about the legitimacy of their position on the Jo Cox programme because they were previously Warren Peto and the programme is to give people who otherwise might not have a chance an opportunity and the confidence and skills to stand for election.

I think this is fair though. If heather has previously stood as an MP, regardless of what their name was then, then the Jo Cox program is not for them as its meant to be for 'new starters'

The misgendering (accurate sexing) thing really pisses me off though, but I understand MN are in a bad position. I would not misgender someone to their face, nor when actually talking to them online either, BUT,m when talking about public figures, and especially public misogynists, I don;t see the need to lie to protect their feelings.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:06

I see your point entirely but I can't help feeling like we are being expected to participate in a high stakes game as the only entrant being expected to play by the rules....

The narrative is that we are hysterical bigots with no argument.

We can not play to that narrative.

Be this woman. The image is powerful in its own right.

This woman is all of us.
TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 20/02/2018 16:06

so its more difficult for the likes of Lily to come after them for hosting 'hate speech'.

But this is a good point too. I reckon the site has now been properly attacked by transactivists. The sealioning did not work enough so they have turned to mass reporting. Must be very annoying for the mods. I moderate another forum and we get groups of members reporting literally every post that says something bad about someone they like..its a quite small forum but we sometimes get hundreds of reports a day. I expect modding this site has became very hard, since it was linked in the mainstream press and directly associated with allowing free speech rather than towing the TRA line.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:11

FWIW, sex offenders like the one who broke in to the house of and wanked in a 15 year old girl's in their bedroom and are now demanding that they are women and should be allowed to go to a woman's prison can get to fuck.

They are men.

If transactivists want to stand by and defend them and attack me for 'misgendering' they can be my guest. They show their priorities and they show that they do not see the glaringly obvious problem.

Juzza12 · 20/02/2018 16:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 16:33

The problem with that Red is where is the line drawn?

It seems implicit in your last post that the use of a preferred pronoun is the gift of the giver to bestow as opposed to the recipient to demand.

If it's ok to call a Trans Woman a man if they've been convicted of assault (sexual or physical) against women, what about openly misogynistic persons? Or for that matter those who verbally assault women's rights?

What about people who openly admit to participation of exposing and driving out women of an organisation who don't agree with their philosophy for example?

This is my problem with the whole preferred pronoun issue. IF you accept it's the right of someone to demand then you don't get to choose when it's used ever.

If it's the right to bestow, then what's an acceptable reason to withhold that?

If the answer is never, then we are straight back to it's up to the recipient to demand regardless.

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:41

The legal case is the focus now, this horrible little man has been talked about enough. He's not worth the time of day. It's the principle we are fighting, this moron is just where bad recruitment/policy decisions get you. It's the Peter principle, promoted to a level of incompetence.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:43

Make the case for why you think it is necessary to 'misgender'. Make your use of it explicit.

Think about how it will present to a third neutral party if the person is defended. Someone saying things you dislike or protesting in a way you dislike or generally being an ass is different to being convicted of a crime.

What politician wants to stand up for the rights of a sex offender as a way to try to attract votes?

The rights of prisoners are an important thing, but its not something you want as one of your flagship policies to win people to your cause is it?

Its about audiences, presentation and perceptions.

This is a propaganda war on a lot of levels. Think about it.

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:44

[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle}}

He was obviously performing well in his prior role as trans-activist, so got promoted, expect to see him stuck there for some time....

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:45

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

FIXED THE LINK

Datun · 20/02/2018 16:57

Its got nothing to do with respecting pronouns, or the person demanding them. And everything to do with keeping the debate going.

No one on here respects Madigan.

This site is relentlessly targeted. And they are stepping up the attack.

They have to. We are making such headway.

Don't give ammo to TRAs.

The equality act is clear you have to use the correct pronouns. It's not clear whether that can be waived outside the presence of the person.

We don't want to headline saying mumsnet has been taken to court for breach of the equality act.

It's entirely unnecessary.

Just call Madigan, Madigan.

Let it sound clunky, because it will be making the point.

I have zero doubt that MNHQ want to facilitate this discussion. They have made it fairly obvious.

Let's help them.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.