19 year old DD tells me ALL boys want to throttle.

[Spidermama]

I've just been left feeling really angry and powerless. DD tells me pretty much all boys 'even nice ones' like to put their hands around girl's throats semi strangling them as part of sex. She's told me other horrible things about what girls her age are fully expected to put up with.
She says the boys get it from porn and there's nothing unusual about it.

I and I'm sure many of us women, have put up with things during sex that we've not really liked just to get it over with. But this is getting ridiculous! It makes me so sad to think of all these young women having to put up with these levels of violence and hatred in something which is supposed to be enjoyable for them.

What can she do. I know how hard it is to stop things being done to you mid act.

Dervel, I haven't heard about '20-30 years ago masculinity beginning to be associated with the capacity to please women sexually' before. Do you have references or suggestions of where I can start looking at this idea please. Or do you want to expand on it?

It would be a fantastic campaign aim to get masculinity re-associated with mutual sexual pleasure and I am going to be taking this up & proposing it, thank you.
A double pronged challenge.

On an individual basis promoting confidence and self esteem is all you can do

Empathy, intimacy and respect for others are all skilled behaviours that are explicitly taught to girls. We need to do better at teaching boys.

Why is them saying that they don't like it and don't want to do it so damn threatening?

I know I'm a broken record, but again - back to individualism over structural analysis.

Saying you don't like it and don't want to do it does not validate a personal identity. In this rush to individualise everything through promotion of personal choice, everything is perceived as either validation (a good thing) or if not that, a threat (a bad thing that must be eliminated) to that personal inner identity.

No possible room to conceptualise something you personally like to do might also constitute, in the round, a social harm for the body politic. "Body politic? What the fuck is that? It's not about me."

No different to the trans issue. Both belonging to the same deification of self. Neobloodyliberalism has a lot to answer for.

Windchime

Don’t be obtuse. No one is saying porn caused all violence. They’re saying it has led to a large increase in boys’ attitude towards sex. And if you can’t see that a young teenager (remember how young boys start watching it) seeing all this violence about something he doesn’t really know yet, won’t be led to believe “this is what sex means”, then you’re delusional. That they don’t want to try it out.

And the comparison to video games - The clue is in the name. One is a game the other is reality. You don’t play a game with the intention of it happening. You certainly watch porn hoping it will / at some point it actually will.

I know you're right, it's just so frustrating! It makes it impossible to have a serious conversation about anything without some idiot jumping in all "but this makes me feel invalidated".

The world does not exist to validate you, people. You are not 5, this is a developmental stage you should be past.

(Unless you actually are 5, in which case please put down the phone and go out and play.)

Empathy, intimacy and respect for others are all skilled behaviours that are explicitly taught to girls. We need to do better at teaching boys

Yes. Teaching girls to have more self esteem, won't change anything if the only option is to have sex with porn addict teens.

The best thing is for those of with sons to teach them not to be sleazeballs.

The people who keep going, oh, just tell her to find nicer boys who don't assume these things are mandatory...where? Does she have a time machine?

Op back to you original question.

It happened to me about 15 years ago. Mid sex, he suddenly started throttling me. Him on top. Him an active soldier (ie very strong). There was absolutely no way to tell him to stop, or fight him off. I have no memory of what I did, but I remember the fear and when he finally took his hand off. It had zero about my pleasure.

So, first good she's talking to you about this.

Second, she needs (it seems from this thread everybody should!) to bring up before they're in the act that it's not on for her, because if it happens, it's unlikely she'll be able to do anything much until he releases.

I'm wondering whether any woman dating now needs to have a list drawn up, kind of like a birth plan, and instead of "no episiotomy" for example, it should have "no strangulation" and anything else. Hand out a card before the act. If he does it, straight to the police. No grey areas! I'm only half joking...

I am starting to hope my young daughters will be gay and have only gay relationships.

Yeah..well now that women also have penises and lesbians are supposed to love "lady cock", I don't think your daughters being gay will make any difference...

"I am starting to hope my young daughters will be gay and have only gay relationships.*"
*
Bold fail above

And again!!

I know you're right, it's just so frustrating! It makes it impossible to have a serious conversation about anything without some idiot jumping in all "but this makes me feel invalidated".

I know. I'm pissing off a couple of posters here on this point, which is not really my intention. But it's just SO infuriating to say the same thing over and over again in plain English. It's not that I want people to agree with me. I just want them to see that another perspective actually exists, whether they want to agree with it or not. But it's an impossible task. It's as though I'm speaking in Mandarin.

I’m nearly 40 and when I was in my teens my recollection was that it wasn’t enough to simply get with girls you had to give a good account of yourself.

Another area that I think bears some analysis is this whole modern pick up artist culture which consists of men congregating with other men discussing how to get women. This never ends well, and as I point out to the odd male friend who falls for it what are they doing talking to other men on how to please and attract women? That could only possibly be logically a good idea if we were all gay men!

I saw a lovely post in the comments the other day in the "World without women moves closer as human eggs are grown in lab for first time" shambles article in the Metro. Mr Charmingman was saying that now that we have sex robots and human eggs no man need have a relationship with an actual woman now!

Maybe if we're really lucky they'll all fuck off and spend their days choking and wanking into robots and leave human women alone.

So a practical question. I have a son. He’s only a preschooler, and we talk about what’s ok and not ok and try to respect his bodily autonomy in an age appropriate way. School have a ‘stop! My body!’ Program.

As he gets older the conversation will evolve and we will introduce topics as he asks and as appropriate.

What else, practically, can I do? I think dh and I model as equal a relationship as we can.

HandbagKrabby horrific is certainly the most appropriate term. I hate having to even write the description but I think that this is one reason porn and the violence in it has increased. Women on average don't look at it so we don't discuss it and it got a free pass in a way. Those who were speaking out were demonised. Plus, when women did start speaking about it Liberal Feminism then used choice to encode abuse as empowerment. Another era of silence. There is change afoot though.

Dworkin's, Pornography is great and naively I didn't realise the extent of the violence in pornography in the 1980s, I thought it was a modern phenomena. However its more how widespread, instant access and ease of access which is new I think. Porn has been rehabilitated in a way. Its not in a seedy shop anymore it is on our high streets. Also in our language - 'food porn' etc.

AngryAttackkittens If you wish to expand on lolicon please do. Even writing about this terrible sh*t is emotionally exhausting. Also thank you for your fantastic responses on this thread, you are on fire.

Sometimes the bold just doesn't work and you can't even figure out why. Annoying!

There are online translators that could help with the Mandarin to English bit. Not sure that there's an individualist to class analysis one.

(I know there isn't one for slippery dishonest bullshit pretending to be sincere but confused, or I'd already be using it in at least one other thread.)

What else, practically, can I do?

My boys are young adults now and I found, as they grew, the best thing was to have open critical conversations with their father that they could witness. Things that you watch on TV together or do together, will naturally evolve to be age-appropriate as they grow. So if they hear you talking about news items or TV shows and pointing out bad tropes (sexism, etc) that get put about in popular culture, they will hopefully take it all on board.

If you sit them down for Serious Talks, they just want to get away as fast as they can.

I remember saying something to me ds when we were watching TV and he said “I know mum- I hate it when you stealth-lecture!”

imnearly 40 and when I was in my teens my recollection was that it wasn’t enough to simply get with girls you had to give a good account of yourself.

I agree with this. Similar age and the climate of the media back then back much more ‘be worthy’ than ‘be dominant’ - the feel of films, media, etc I think has changed. My early sexual encounters at university were very much anxious young men trying to give a good account. Even pop videos were more benign. It’s hard to give concrete examples...

It is horrifying to think that young men are exposed to extreme porn at an age when their brains are still developing - I know with adrenaline there is evidence that exposure desensitises most in the teen years, and I suspect the same for porn. Any conversation we have on this needs to include young men and young women. Men need to be told explicitly that certain behaviours are not normal and women need to have the skills and the societal support to say no.

What a mess.

Thank you Dervel . Oh for a time machine! Certainly pick up culture is another head of this beast.

One of my biggest wishes is to see an add campaign/ representation in film or t.v. of young, cool men sat around talking about how they make a woman orgasm. Men giving out ego boosts for sexual skill. How she really wanted it in such she was dragging me to bed, practically ripping my clothes off. This notion of enthusiastic consent rather than the lack of no and sex as boundary pushing or coercion.

Maybe if we're really lucky they'll all fuck off and spend their days choking and wanking into robots and leave human women alone.

If you ever feel like never sleeping again would be useful look into the kind of condition that RealDolls get sent back for repair in.

RE Lolicon, lots of people argue that it serves as an outlet for pedophiles and is thus a good thing. This is bullshit. Wanking to something over and over again reinforces the brain pathways associated with that thing and strengthens the connection between the thing you're wanking to and the pleasure you get at the end. Orgasm is a very powerful conditioning tool. Plus, the fact that lolicon exists and is consumed by lots of people reinforces the idea that wanting to abuse children isn't that bad, it's normal, lots of men like it. "Habituating" is the word I'm leaning towards. To then argue that the men who consume vast quantities of it are less likely to abuse children as a result? I don't buy it. It's true that paper and pencils don't care what you do with them, but the actual kids that the men who've been saturating themselves in that crap may go on to abuse do.

Good advice Lang, thank you.

Thank you Backenette I love the idea of 'be worthy' rather than 'be dominant'

If you ever feel like never sleeping again would be useful look into the kind of condition that RealDolls get sent back for repair in

There's a job you just can't paid enough for.