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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

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RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:15

What do you think?

I know I have a mind and that it is distinct from my physical body. And that even if you could create a fully functioning automaton of me - or indeed a clone - it wouldn't have my mind in it.

I don't know about a soul.

How about you?

PencilsInSpace · 11/02/2018 20:19

It's breathtakingly ignorant to think your opinion is in any way useful when you haven't bothered finding out what is being demanded of us.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 11/02/2018 20:21

Maybe you're right, but you can't prove it. Maybe you're wrong, but I can't prove it. Neither of us has a right to impose our views on the other to the exclusion of the others' reality.

No I cannot prove it. But given woman means adult human female, and adult human females have rights based on biology and nothing else (ie. not their souls, or feminine choices) its all a bit by the by really.

I am not saying some people do not have a gendered soul. Such a thing can never really be proven or disproven as you say, as it cannot be measured. What CAN be measured, is biology. Which is why laws based on biology make sense, where laws based on this supposed mythical gendered essence, do not make the slightest bit of sense.

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:21

It's not the content, but the function of the discussion that matters, and its function is to ban us from referring to the set of adult human females.

In its current form it does seem to serve that function which is manifestly damaging!

I don't care, per se, what the new meaning of 'woman' is and whether it makes sense. I want a way of distinguishing female people from male people by class please.

I'm all up for saying "female" and "male" people actually.

I know that isn't what's on the cards, but I don't think much of what's on the cards to be honest. There never used to be a recognised need to refer to gender and sex separately, and now it would seem that there is; and to be able to do so would solve a lot (not all) of problems.

Juzza12 · 11/02/2018 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrGHardy · 11/02/2018 20:22

"I read about that "cotton ceiling" thing. It's the kind of thing some idiot will always be thinking in their head but only a very particularly stupid one would say out loud."

Sorry, but you are very ignorant. There is an incredible large amount of trans activists that say exactly those things. And pretty much everyone o n the trans agenda ignores it or condones it. In fact, those that speak up within the movement, are vilified themselves. Follow some lesbian twitter accounts, see for yourself.

In fact, I think you perfectly highlight the problem. So many people feel so sorry for this group that have put themselves into being the best minority there is (cry about being such a small minority in terms of numbers and how suicide is so prevalent), that they don't see things with an open mind. The trans agenda is pretty much a crusade for many people. All the lefty, woke bros can proclaim how great they are for supporting it, all the young people can rebel against the older generation, be it older women (and yes it's mostly older women that don't buy the dogma) or conservatives, what have you.

The young used to take drugs to escape and rebel. Now they shout "transphobia" from the top of their lungs. They always wanted "acceptance" and if you hadn't noticed, that is what they cry about the most - "TERFs deny our existence", why can't they just accept it. It's the ultimate movement for self-validation for people that really just need support and help. If they could truly accept themselves, they wouldn't "die" if others didn't constantly openly validate them.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 11/02/2018 20:23

Sorry, yet again forgot to refresh and see the thread has gone on very quickly sicne then. Went in the bath and posted my reply before refreshing the page, again. So if someone else has said something along the same lines, I am sorry and am not meaning to get you to repeat yourself Blush

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:26

It's breathtakingly ignorant to think your opinion is in any way useful when you haven't bothered finding out what is being demanded of us.

Would it change the validity of my argument that gender could maybe be innate if I'd watched some bastard transactivist act like a knob on Twitter?

MrGHardy · 11/02/2018 20:28

Yes, it could be. I could also potentially just jump up and fly.

Oh and again, sex and gender are not the same thing. So even if you are right, there is still grounds to keep trans women out of women spaces such as refuges or sports.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 11/02/2018 20:28

I know I have amindand that it is distinct from my physical body.

Sorry Rat but the science really doesn't support that.

You're welcome to believe it. It doesn't do anyone else any harm. But it isn't scientifuc fact

Automatons are still very crude compared to humans. There's all sorts of things they can't do so that isn't very relevent when discussing whether you have a mind that's separate to your physical body.

And the briefest visit to Twitter will tell you that lots of Tra's and their handmaidens are saying very loudly that lesbians should be willing to sleep with transwomen with penises and that you're bigoted (and a vagina fetishist) if they won't.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 11/02/2018 20:29

*a mind and that

Not sure why those words jumped together!

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/02/2018 20:34

Again, it doesn't really matter what gender is. Crucially, nobody can agree about it, nobody can verify it, and some people think it changes regularly (is 'fluid')

These are the reasons why it cannot be the basis of legislation or determining legal protections.

Unlike sex, which is immutable, easy to determine and predictive of relevant behaviours.

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:34

but given woman means adult human female, and adult human females have rights based on biology and nothing else (ie. not their souls, or feminine choices) its all a bit by the by really.

It means that because we say it means that. We're not bound by it. Adult female humans should indeed be able to have their rights based on their specific biology protected - too right!

I am not saying some people do not have a gendered soul. Such a thing can never really be proven or disproven as you say, as it cannot be measured. What CAN be measured, is biology. Which is why laws based on biology make sense, where laws based on this supposed mythical gendered essence, do not make the slightest bit of sense.

It's not either/or though is it, and it absolutely does make sense to afford people protection from prejudice if that prejudice arises from what's in their head rather than the biology of their body. That's completely reasonable.

MrGHardy · 11/02/2018 20:39

"Adult female humans should indeed be able to have their rights based on their specific biology protected - too right!"

So how are you saying this and at the same time that maybe TW should compete in women's sports or be in women's refuges? Makes no sense.

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:40

Sorry Rat but the science really doesn't support that.

Seriously, everybody needs to go out and read about the mind body problem; ever heard of Descartes? "I think therefore I am"? The philosophy of mind?? I might have to consult Google to give some of you something to start you off on this because I'm afraid it really isn't a case of "the science doesn't support that". I cannot begin to explain how that does not compute.

Also the cotton ceiling thing is total bull. I can't remember the exact question but I don't want to be accused of not unequivocally condemning it.

PencilsInSpace · 11/02/2018 20:42

Would it change the validity of my argument that gender could maybe be innate if I'd watched some bastard transactivist act like a knob on Twitter?

No I don't care what people want to believe, I care about the effects of those beliefs on material reality for the rest of us if we are required to go along with it. You can't preach compromise without any reference to the things we are supposed to be compromising with. It's bullshit.

Your argument will have validity when you've discussed it with the transactivists and can report back. Until then you're just needling women to try to get us to agree with a position that wouldn't be acceptable to the transactivists anyway. Massive waste of time.

I read about that "cotton ceiling" thing. It's the kind of thing some idiot will always be thinking in their head but only a very particularly stupid one would say out loud.

Is this all just an intellectual game to you? Why do you dismiss the lived experiences of lesbians so easily while paying massive attention to the inexpressible womanly feelings in some men's heads? You don't even need to look far. There's a current thread on here about the decimation of lesbian culture and the horrible effects of trans ideology on the everyday material lives of lesbian women.

Juzza12 · 11/02/2018 20:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Horridemma · 11/02/2018 20:46

Lady dick has made me chuckle 😂

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:46

spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil100/mindintro.html

Can't guarantee this is any good cos I only skimmed it, but it was the first introduction to mind body theory that I could find.

RatRolyPoly · 11/02/2018 20:47

I'll be damned if a bunch of perverted, mentally ill men get to say what "woman" means.

What if they were women in men's bodies; would they get a say then? Can you prove that they're not?

Juzza12 · 11/02/2018 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Horridemma · 11/02/2018 20:48

Pseudo psycho bollocks 🍸🍸

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/02/2018 20:48

Descartes isn't really considered up-date-science Rat. Current psychology / neuroscience assumes a materialist position.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/02/2018 20:50

What if they were women in men's bodies; would they get a say then? Can you prove that they're not?

Yes, because a woman is defined as someone who's in a woman's body. QED

MrGHardy · 11/02/2018 20:52

Rat oh dear. Your entire argument is based on ideas that are not accepted in science, and might, just might be true. Or not. You completely ignore reality and every argument presented to you that you cannot answer with this theoretical argument. It's all about what is in their head and how we should accept it. That's all you got essentially.

But again, even if trans women truly, honestly, scientifically verifiably feel they are 'women' (whatever that now means), does in no way, shape, or form mean they should get access to women's spaces. So really, what are you arguing for?