Can you all just lay off trans people

[cjferg]

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

The ONLY reason I'm not saying that to the TRAs is that I'm not talking to them. I assure you I would hold them to exactly the same standards

Well why don't you go and do that then? Why are you farting about on here rather than trying to persuade the transactivists to 'compromise'. Why do you need to take our word for what they're like? Why are you not out there seeing how things are for yourself?

What further 'compromises' do you expect women to make? Spell it out please with reference to material reality rather than fluffy vagueness about 'tolerance', 'compromise' and 'feelings'.

Hairy,

In the legal sense, I am much closer to the TERF position and some of the stories and links that have been posted on these boards about men claiming rights to female spaces are shocking.

I just feel the language used on these boards is highly insensitive and derogatory to all of those who feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are transgender. It seems to me the equivalent of just telling an anorexic to stop whingeing and just eat.

I think research on the innateness of gender (or otherwise) is worth pursuing and I posted some interesting links upthread.

I think Rat can affirm her own position re women's sport. I have not read her other comments but her view in this debate seems to be carefully thought out and attempting to balance the competing rights.

The ONLY reason I'm not saying that to the TRAs is that I'm not talking to them. I assure you I would hold them to exactly the same standards

When was the last time you did?

People are blind to their own logical failures.

Adult human females are women.
Put the definition that way round.

Because adult human females existed first. The label only exists to enable us to communicate about them.

We don't invent arbitrary words and THEN debate what concept and definition to fill them with meaning. The reality exists and is meaningful and important enough that we label it so we can talk about it.

I'm not going to debate the existence of human females nor am I going to play a part in destroying the language we need to discuss then.

As far as other concepts go, unless a 'gender believer' can EXPLAIN exactly what they mean - AND every other ambiguous word they invoke to explain it, they might as well be arguing for the existence of psychic ectoplasm.

Be prepared to explain and defend your concept better than 'some people seem to believe in it so lets suspend judgement' if you expect anyone to give credibility to something which apparently is
-invisible
-undetectable
-unmeasurable
-intangible
-untestable
-lacking any characteristics
-indefinable

Yet you claim is SHARED by a large group of humans and is ABSENT from another.

Rat I don't agree with your fundamental argument (that gender is both a social construct and also something innate that we are born with), but I really appreciate your contributions and the way you are consistently presenting a different viewpoint. Thanks

Barracker 👏👏

"Fuck it, forgot to reply to this. The status quo is that. But not for everyone. Some people don't think they're "men wanting to be women". That's rather the point."

So what those people think matters more? And it is irrelevant whether they are 'right' or not? 'Feels' is all that matters?

Just fyi I believe I have a soul or spirit (I'm Christian) but I don't believe my spirit has a gender.

Some people think theirs does.

Some people think they don't have a soul.

Some people think they don't have a soul.

What do you think?

I'd also like to know how the same people who claim that gender is innate will also claim it can change on a daily basis.

Barracker,

'Be prepared to explain and defend your concept better than 'some people seem to believe in it so lets suspend judgement' if you expect anyone to give credibility to something which apparently is
-invisible
-undetectable
-unmeasurable
-intangible
-untestable
-lacking any characteristics
-indefinable'

That is what the below research project is all about:

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-biology/born-this-way-researchers-explore-the-science-of-gender-identity-idUSKBN1AJ0F0

It either will be defined or what you say will be found to be true.

Ereshkigal I'm in a femism forum because I consider myself a feminist. I had no prior reason to have this chat with any TRAs (I wouldn't know where to find any, I'm not in Twitter!). But politically I will push for a solution which upholds tolerance on both sides, and I guess I'll keep discussing that on here.

Ostrichnomore and others
Not withstanding the very serious stats about womens safety, you do realise not only are transgender people already using toilets of their preferred gender and most feel safer doing so than using the mens while recognisable as a woman, but is even accepted by so many that could otherwise challenge and prevent them, either out of fear of transphobia, not being certain it is a man in disguise or thinking its no big deal. Most of all even if they are challenged they can produce an official ID which can already be altered by self ID (driving license, passport, Citizencard all can), which require a statutory change of name and other records changed so its not exactly an easy option. We might think its wrong these documents can already be self id, but thats beyond the current debate on updated GRA.

Constant talk of self id will allow any man to do X and Y which he can't already misses the point.

Datun! The gender fluidity just flows, don't you know anything?

I think Rat can affirm her own position re women's sport.

I was going to comment on your position on women's sport yesterday but didn't want to derail the discussion. I don't want to again today, but my position is that women's being safe and competitive is my top priority. However I believe there may be circumstances when it is deemed fair and appropriate for a transwomen to compete if those things can be upheld. I trust the sports'governing bodies to be the final arbiters of this.

"I trust the sports'governing bodies to be the final arbiters of this."

I don't. They are prone to political pressure.

If you are still thinking that there is an internal sense that some people have as to whether they are male or female, but other people don't, or don't realise it, because they align, maybe read about some detransitioning stories.

There are hundreds of thousands of trans individuals across the globe, so many infact and with such a suitably "believable" story that the high courts of I think 23 different countries have ruled to recognise their condition as genuine. Undoubtedly there will be detransitioners, but they are not all detransitioners.

You might also wonder why detransitioners are abused and vilified and research into detransitioning is prevented.

I believe you that this happens, but whether or not there is some agenda at work does not change the argument that an innate gender is fundamentally plausible.

It should be treated, but not accommodated as reality in any way.

And if knew something about yourself FOR SURE that noone could adequately disprove (but that eaually you yourself could not prove) would you be happy with treatment over acceptance?

I'm not saying "give 'em everything they want", I'm saying let's go back to a starting point of "this might actually be a real thing".

Ereshkigal I'm in a femism forum because I consider myself a feminist. I had no prior reason to have this chat with any TRAs (I wouldn't know where to find any, I'm not in Twitter!). But politically I will push for a solution which upholds tolerance on both sides, and I guess I'll keep discussing that on here.

Well then you have no clue what's going on. How dare you come on here and preach 'tolerance' to the party that are being shat on wholesale? What gives you the right to 'push for a solution' when your position is so ignorant?

Rat Does that tolerance include lesbians being open to sleeping with males, because they claim to be women and lesbians themselves?

I read about that "cotton ceiling" thing. It's the kind of thing some idiot will always be thinking in their head but only a very particularly stupid one would say out loud.

What gives you the right to 'push for a solution' when your position is so ignorant

It's not ignorant to not position ones arguments in a reactionary fashion. There are idiots all over the shop. You can't let that colour your reasoning.

I don't. They are prone to political pressure.

This is a fair point. It's not cut and dried.

All this debate about 'what is the essence and definition of a woman' is a big red herring.

It's not the content, but the function of the discussion that matters, and its function is to ban us from referring to the set of adult human females.

I don't care, per se, what the new meaning of 'woman' is and whether it makes sense. I want a way of distinguishing female people from male people by class please.