Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I have just skim read The Female Eunuch and like everyone else, the stand out line to me was that men hate us but we aren't aware of the extent, and neither are they!!

Do you think this is true?? My DH, my late father and my brother, all immensely like/d and love/d the women in their lives. I hate to think it is true, but if it is, I want to know! I want to know my enemy.

Susan it's not a personal thing against women, their hormones are more varied during menstrual cycle and science likes to keep variables to a minimum so they can measure the factor theyre supposed to be. It's not saying women aren't normal.

It is. If men had hormonal fluctuations and women did not, the trials would specifically be based on how the drug interacted with those fluctuations, because those fluctuations would be deemed to be the norm.

But if a group of people poses no threat to you, why rape, murder and assault them?

Susan- a poster has just said, who works in trials this isn't true, except where it is necessary to reduce the variables!

But if a group of people poses no threat to you, why rape, murder and assault them?

Good question. If there’s no concrete threat then at some level there must be fear. People hate what they fear.

Well how about the historical perspective then Missy, as highlighted above? Have you read the online abuse that famous women get, Dianne Abbot, Rebecca Adlington, Rose McGowan currently......I suggest you have a look and then ask if men hate women. You've been given vast amounts of evidence, you still don't see it?

The question of why men hate women is the real one.
Why? Do they fear us? Do they see emasculation in us? Are we a threat to their core being? Or is it ‘just’ that humans seem to have a desire to form hierarchies, and suppressing the physically weaker half allows all men, not just the big strong ones, to feel powerful? I suspect the latter

Susan- a poster has just said, who works in trials this isn't true, except where it is necessary to reduce the variables!

I know, I know. What I am saying is that science in general has been developed by men- it's only in the past 50 years or so that women have had any input at all. Methods have been developed with a certain type of person in mind. If women had developed science, we may well have different ways of carrying out trials.

I am not saying that scientists are deliberately excluding women etc- this is something more subtle and most people just unquestioningly accept that it's the right way to do things.

Men hate women- is too simplistic. If it were broken down into specific categories which could be reviewed with actual evidence and all variables, factors considered- then you could look at it objectively. I refuse to form an opinion on if men hate women, because it's too wide and I cannot look at it objectively.

Science is science- its objective and peer reviewed, very little room for bias and gender influence.

Also missy I’m talking about the current state of trials - which is so tightly regulated you wouldn’t believe.

But those regulations were drawn up only in response to some truly shocking human rights abuses - the Nazi medical experiments, tunguskee experiments, portion down etc etc. Pharma has t regulated itself out of altruism, it’s fone so because it got caught doing some really awful stuff

Women have historically been treated very badly indeed by medicine. Look at the Magdalen laundries - spurious excuses of ‘looseness’ or ‘nerves’ to lock women away.

There are still massive issues with sexism. Why is there no decent contraception that’s not painful to have I stalled or hormally distributive? Trials on men’s contraceptives were halted because the side effects were deemed unacceptable- even though they were exactly the same side effects women put up with in their billions

I think that medicine is still deeply misogynistic. I had hg in my first pregnancy (and have it now in my second) and I was truly shocked at the level of suffering g I was expected to endure. My husband must have said ‘men wouldn’t put up with this’ about a thousand times. And he’s right. My first pregnancy has left me far more a radical feminist because I’ve seen first hand how even a stoic, non complaining, scientifically aware woman can be treated like a hysterical vessel.

It’s not ok. Dismissal, belittling, hatred of women. It runs deep

I do wonder what it was like before the advent of Christianity? Eve certainly came under a lot slack in the bible...which is basically an instrument of female control by men. Since then it's been a hoot and a half for women....beheadings, being property of...............men, witchcraft accusations, the suffragettes and the real biggy in the 60's...contraception!! Which meant oh my god women could shag away, without being unencumbered by pregnancy. I've actually heard men say the worst atrocity in history was to give women the vote.....but no they love us really.........😉

that science in general has been developed by men- it's only in the past 50 years or so that women have had any input at all.

Correct. Look what happened to Hypatia. Not just excluded but actively persecuted and killed. Look at the exclusion of Rosalind Franklin. Many brilliant women have been treated appallingly

I think Lavoisier’s wife is suspected of doing half his stuff. Think of the talent we’ve missed over the years.

I would also encourage you missy to go and read the daily mail comments (if you can bear it because by the gods, it’s a sewer..) on any article that mentions feminism. Pure, pure hatred.

My dh is I think 3rd generation (definitely 2nd gen) of men that treat women like people and it really shows. We do fall into gender roles sometimes but we talk about it and we try to change because he sees it is unfair for example for all the cooking and cleaning to fall to me, or the kids social lives or other women’s work type stuff. I’m from a family that embraces women’s work and I’m sure if I were a man I would struggle to not see women as there for me, to just do things for me and not see women as real people who want to do things for themselves like I as a man do. Based on the adults I know the men range from ones like my dh to utter unreconstructed misogynists. Every man (or woman) who says things like women aren’t as funny as men, women aren’t as good as men at being in charge, women can’t cope with responsibility because of their emotions, women are better at unpaid work like housework and childcare, women are best off in the home, women lie about being raped, women provoke men to attack and abuse them etc does not like women, does not respect women and does not see women as people.

As an aside, it’s criminal that drugs aren’t tested so women can use them. I was given paracetamol and nothing else after elcs because I was breastfeeding. It’s torture to provide inadequate pain relief after surgery imho and I’d be astounded if it happens to any other patient group.

See the scandal on vaginal mesh for how dismissive the medical industry is of women.

I'm not dismissing problems- only stating that the term men hate women is too broad to look at objectively and that caution is needed when making such a vast generalisation.

Okay, what about the term 'oppression' seeing as you are getting really hung up on the term hate? Do you believe that women as a class are oppressed by men and that men in general do not see women as their equals?

I was given paracetamol and nothing else after elcs because I was breastfeeding. It’s torture to provide inadequate pain relief after surgery imho and I’d be astounded if it happens to any other patient group.

It’s actully worse than that. There ARE safe painkillers. You can take ibuprofen and very short term doses of oral morphine quite safely. But you’re not - because women are expected to cope.

No other post surgery group would be, and there is zero clinical reasoning for it.

It’s like hg. I was vomiting up to a dozen times a day. Dehydrated. Horribly sick. There are drugs that have a proven safety record in pregnancy- and yet again and again I was told there wasn’t, I had to basically say ‘look mate, I do this for a living, open up this database, read this then justify to me why I can’t have it.’
No man walking into the gp with 12x plus a day vomiting for months in end would be told to put up with it. The misogyny is astounding.

Susan,
thats a big topic and I'm running out of steam! Off to watch tv for a bit now me thinks.

My dad and both my brothers and my ex bil hate/hated me. I have been harassed and abused by men countless times. That is nothing unusual is it? I have a few very dear male friends/relatives but no male in my household and never will be again. It is true.

Backenette I’d forgotten the two very low doses of oramorph I was allowed that a. barely touched the sides and b. I had to stop taking for 24 hours if I wanted to leave the hospital. Wouldn’t give me ibuprofen as I have asthma. The consultants seemed exasperated but offered no alternative. My dh had to go out and buy me a hot water bottle for the cramp type pain and I had a peppermint tea.

Women wants a c section - This is very serious surgery my dear with lots of potential risks and complications - are you sure you understand what you’re asking for? Have some mandatory counselling and numerous appointment to check you want to go ahead with this.

Woman has c-section - Here’s two paracetamol love and you need to pick that baby up yourself whilst holding your insides in. What’s your problem? You’ve only had a baby and you need to get used to it.

i think the hate is fear- of our incredible power. We bear life. We have true strength because we are in touch with our feelings and we move like rivers of water through under and around obstacles. They want to contain and control our power. I wish more women would understand this. Men should not be placed at the head of households- they often cannot cope and become destructive. They are much better working alongside women and serving the common good rather than being given a ruling role.

Do we think this is a generation thing, possibly that it is generally younger women who don't believe men hate us. I apologise if I'm wrong Missy but are you young, as in under 25??

In answer to the original question. No! All people men and women are primarily selfish and want to put their interests first. ( I know we can all subvert that impulse to temporarily put others first). Therefore when men can further their own interests by oppressing women they will ( unless conscience intervenes) if women can further their own interests by saying all men hate them they will. I also suspect there may be an element of the phrase 'most men hate most women they meet sometimes' ( and vice versa) doesn't grab as much attention or sell as many books / column inches etc.!

Maybe Lettuce although I am comparatively young. Not under 25 though. I developed my feminist beliefs quite early on. Probably spurred on by the fact that my dad was a massive shit and my maternal grandfather an even bigger one. So my role models were always mainly female and I had seen for myself the violence and hatred that men could perpetrate. My dad was quite openly misogynistic as well.

I do find it odd that missy cannot even bring herself to say that there is oppression. Women have to be the only oppressed group that actively apologises for their oppressors and denies that there is a problem.