Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I have just skim read The Female Eunuch and like everyone else, the stand out line to me was that men hate us but we aren't aware of the extent, and neither are they!!

Do you think this is true?? My DH, my late father and my brother, all immensely like/d and love/d the women in their lives. I hate to think it is true, but if it is, I want to know! I want to know my enemy.

SusanBunch

Yes definitely. I bring up the age issue because I have generally noticed some younger women being quite dismissive of feminism in general. They believe they have achieved equality and that 'girl power' worked......it so didn't.

Do we think this is a generation thing, possibly that it is generally younger women who don't believe men hate us. I apologise if I'm wrong Missy but are you young, as in under 25??

I do think this is a good point though. For younger women, say mainly under 45, often the hatred is not visible because they are deemed to be sexually attractive and can get ahead on that basis. It can sometimes only be obvious once you assume a form that is no longer pleasing to the patriarchy- e.g. if you are too fat, too old or look too much like a lesbian. THEN you can start to see more clearly how little you are valued, despite the many years you spent sticking up for the patriarchy and denying that oppression was a thing.

Yup, krabby I hear you. The way I was treated made me want to spit. And that’s as an educated, eloquent person who is quasi medical and can argue the toss.

This time round I’ve switched practices to a female-run private one. They have gynaes on site (3 week wait to see a doc at the other one) and I was very straightforward with the midwife about how I’d been treated last time and how I would prefer it to be this time. So far so good, the difference in treatment has been astounding.

I think I’ve become more feminist as I’ve aged lettuce less desire to please, knowing my own mind more and having the idealism knocked out of me. Friends say similar. Cynicism with age perhaps? There’s a definite ‘cool girl/bro culture’ thing with some younger women. I suspect fewer older ones.
Also feminist thought has been stripped from universities in a big way - women’s studies is now gender studies and has been hijavked somewhat. Female academics I know dare not speak their minds for fear of mob/twitter denunciation. Students no longer want to be challenged they want safe spaces and echo chambers. By the time they realise what’s happening it will be too late

p.s. lettucespray. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, what was written down in around the first century ad, in the gospels of the bible was actually really countercultural. Women being given the news first about the empty tomb and being given the task of telling others ( regardless of what happened, the fact is it wasn't edited out), Jesus with the status of a teacher talking to women, women being named as leaders in the some of the early churches .... all normal to us now but SHOCKING in that culture at that time. The bible is absolutely not anti women. Ask any unbiased theologian and there are many out there who don't believe it's true but none the less are experts on it as a historical document.

Just catching up and @missy's wiki thing

I mentioned that there is evidence that women do each other down in workplaces that are majority male before you started posting links about relational aggression

Are you reading other poeple's posts?

cosmos239

Yes you may be right, however it was definitely men who got hold of the bible and let's say, reworked it to benefit men which it has done ever since.

For younger women, say mainly under 45, often the hatred is not visible because they are deemed to be sexually attractive and can get ahead on that basis

This. You think you're valued on the same basis as your male peers so you think you have equality. You notice that you're being sleazed on more, but you think that's a separate problem. It's not until later you realise that the being valued and the being sleazed on were closely related and that now you're no longer sleazed on you're no longer valued either.

(Not all workplaces are like this etc)

The bible runs the whole gamut - from lot giving his daughters to the mob to the yes genuinely progressive bits of New Testament.
The books that were included were decided by committee.

What’s key though is that those progressive messages were then co opted by a patriarchal power structure so that Christianity was just as oppressive to women as all the other major religions.

Women being given the news first about the empty tomb and being given the task of telling others ( regardless of what happened, the fact is it wasn't edited out), Jesus with the status of a teacher talking to women, women being named as leaders in the some of the early churches

Wow, imagine being told first despite having a vagina... OK, I am kidding. I don't know why it says what it says in the bible, but the same book has been used to oppress women for centuries and still is. We also had female queens throughout the centuries and they ruled countries, yet ordinary women were unable to vote and were unable to become doctors or lawyers, despite passing all their exams.

On the terminology

I think that lots of men don't really see women as full people, actual 3D individuals with their own thoughts, interests, beliefs, desires, in the same way as they do men

I also think that a lot of men have a sort of low grade hostility to women which you can find if you scratch the surface, the ones who don't like it when women disagree with them, who make nasty comments about women as a group, or jokes, the ones who enjoy porn that degrades women, or who laugh at depictions of women being degraded or hurt

Then there are a smaller number who are outright upfront hostile - enough that we have all met them, men who react with anger to the slightest thing, who get very aggressive if rejected gently, who shout abuse at women, that sort of thing

Then you have a minority but still fairly big group who carry out street harassment, "minor" sexual offences, who enjoy upsetting intimidating assaultng women and girls as they go about their lives, or in the workplace or home. much overlap with the previous group

then you have the ones who commit DV, rape, murder us. Still way too many of those.

So while "hate" is a term that some people may have issues with, certainly it's undeniable that large numbers of men have a problem with women and girls, from putting us down, to deliberately upsetting us, to enjoying seeing us humiliated especailly sexually, to raping and murdering us.

That's what the quote at the beginning is shorthand for. That and the fact that men control everything and if they wanted to stop it they could, but they don't. So, what do you call that? It's not love is it. And it's not really indifference - if you bring in the laws around the world specifically to make life difficult for us - to restrict our freedoms, that points in the direction of a desire to make things worse for us than they need to be. To control. So, pointing towards something not positive towards women at a societal level.

UpABitLate

Very well put. Particularly that low grade hostility, I've seen men look at groups of women having a laugh with indisputable hatred, heard vile things about ex partners or women who have rejected them. Countless stories about harassment by men to women walking down the street. Been called a 'stuck up bitch' more times than I can remember. But no, there's no hatred?? 🤔

up a great post

I was thinking why on any thread like this anywhere online it seems to take between two and ten posts before there’s namalt, women are just as bad/would be just as bad if given the chance, what about my significant males, where’s your incontrovertible proof etc. And I do think it’s because men are seen as people and women are not. So everything is seen through the lens of the person, the man. We do it without thinking, I know I do sometimes and it’s really hard for people to see what they’re doing and acknowledge but when you can see it, it’s infuriating.

Men still hold the vast majority of the power in the world. They could literally wave a magic wand and make it 50/50 tomorrow if they wanted to, but they don’t and they won’t.

I don't think the Emmeline Pankhurst used to NAMALT all over the place, did she?

We really should drop NAMALT - I'm sick to death of it - and it allows men to just pass the buck by saying 'we're not like that'.

For younger women, say mainly under 45, often the hatred is not visible because they are deemed to be sexually attractive and can get ahead on that basis

I don't know. There were quite a few times that I would get a glimpse of it, a resentment of the power that they think you have. You see it on the internet all the time, this assumption that young women have so much sexual power and privilege and a hateful resentment of it.

I think Dervel wrote a fantastic post on this a while back. It was pretty insightful.

“Men in general do not see women as their equals.”

In my life/work/group of friends they do.

Strikes me as lots of people angry at themselves on this thread

I have seen the hatred of women, by men and other women, in two workplaces and spaces especially. The first was in academia; the second (bizarrely, to me) was in the liberal democrat party. I believe it's now in labour too - and getting noticed.

I’ve seenxolenty of hatred of men by both men and women in lots of places I’ve worked.
Lots of women bitching about other women mostly. I suppose that’s the fault of men too.

@terftastic
“We really should drop NAMALT - I'm sick to death of it - and it allows men to just pass the buck by saying 'we're not like that'.”

So you know all men?? Shock horror, there are some nice men. You just don’t want to see it because it doesn’t fit your bullshit agenda, that you’ve probably had for years and you’ve convinced yourself you’re right.
Let’s tar all women with the same brush too shall we?

You’re very insular and narrow minded and need to grow up and live in the real world

You’re very insular and narrow minded and need to grow up and live in the real world

Says someone who's most likely in her 20s by the sound of it to a bunch of women old enough to be her mum.

It's all quite hypocritical though isn't it?

Yes Oxfam are a fucking disgrace. But prostitutes are widely used here in UK and many of the prostituted are vulnerable women, trafficked, and/or children. Yet there is no outrage. In fact many women and men believe it is empowering for the prostituted/ trafficked.

Same with porn. So many in MN proudly state how they don't have a problem with porn / strip clubs etc.

In my mind these are all the same. Variations of men's right to buy and use women and children. So many of them supported by women in doing so.

Oops wrong thread

So you know all men?? Shock horror, there are some nice men.

Jeez, way to miss the point.

Shock horror, there are some nice men.

Yes there are. But you’d be surprised at what nice men get up to. In the last ten years I’ve seen an awful lot of the nice men I knew do some pretty awful things to wives. I’ve heard them debate whether they’d rape if they were never caught. I’ve heard some horror stories from divorcing wives.

Nobody is saying that every Male on the planet is in a state of raging hatred towards women. Whatcthey are saying is that the prevailing Male attitude in society towards women is dismissive, belittling, violent and oppressive. Everything in society is set up to benefit men. Work is - most sahps are women so that men can be inencumbered by child rearing. To get ahead in a career you have to be 24/7 available which requires a nanny - or a wife at home. Women are paid less. They are discriminated against. They are mocked.

As I said previously go and read the comments under any daily mail article that touches on feminism. The hatred is so intense.

You do sound young. And idealistic, which isn’t a bad thing. Come back in twenty years when your peer group has been through he first divorce wave, and see what you think then

Bit out of my comfort zone posting on a feminism thread but really interesting debate.

I did watch the video ..so is it irrelevant that if we asked a representative population of the world (men and women) who were their most hated individual people then those listed would by far and away mostly be men (Trump, Hitler, the local murderer/person who them beat up etc)?

Isn't it well known that men are the more extreme sex - both the best and worst people on the planet whereas women are just more level and in the middle? Not that I am saying that is right.

Happy to be educated!

Isn't it well known that men are the more extreme sex - both the best and worst people on the planet whereas women are just more level and in the middle? Not that I am saying that is right

My take on that is that men get the most done (in both directions) because they have the most power and the most freedom.

And that's the case because of the way most societies are organised.