Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I have just skim read The Female Eunuch and like everyone else, the stand out line to me was that men hate us but we aren't aware of the extent, and neither are they!!

Do you think this is true?? My DH, my late father and my brother, all immensely like/d and love/d the women in their lives. I hate to think it is true, but if it is, I want to know! I want to know my enemy.

Missymoo100

Wikipedia does not count as valid research! The majority of posters on this thread have told you that their experience is not the same as yours but you continue to correlate your experience with other women. This is very clearly your issue, in all my 49 years I have experienced 1 female foe and MANY male ones. But none of that matters......male to female violence is very well documented, fact!

Lettuce I could easily find you a scientific reference or you perhaps you could research it- are you saying it's a lie?
To ask the question do men hate women, without looking at female-female hostility as well is to come to a half baked conclusion- which often leads to a type of lie because a half truth isn't the truth.
I'm not disputing the fact that males are physically violent to females. They're also physically violent to men. The majority of assault statistics are male on male

• should we therefore come to the conclusion that men hate men?

I think personal experience is never going to be good indicator of what is happening on a global scale is it?

No but relational aggression has been studied and is mostly female against females

Based on these findings, girls do seem to use relational aggression more than boys.

Think of why that might be. When you’re denied access to the real power structure you can only do minor things like bitching.
Why do you think the trope of the hellish matriarch MIL comes from? Or the endless cycle of Indian daughter in law abuse? Because that’s the only power women had - in the domestic sphere. They can’t kick anywhere else so they kick their fellows.

Men are violent to assert dominance over males and females. They are aggressive to females sometimes because of sexual motivations. I don't think it's as simple as "hate"- which suggests to me a strong dislike

Backette- perhaps. However one thing is that it usually starts in adolescence, so I'm not sure which power structure any adolescent has access to.

I was bullied by a gang of three men in the workplace - they killed my last career stone dead. I think we have all been fed the line so many times that women pick on other women and are jealous, vindictive and so on, that we lazily believe it to be be true. Confirmation bias then comes Into play. Men WANT us to believe that women all hate each other and sadly a lot of women fall for it.

I don't think you are being very honest if your saying female-female hostility doesn't exist.

I am sure it does. And women can be misogynists too. However, women do not perpetrate 90% of the violence against other women. Women do not murder 2 women per week. It suits men fine if we just focus on low level bickering between women. That just reinforces that men are better, more rational, more suited for certain jobs etc. Perfect.

I’d rather be bitched about than subjugated.

However one thing is that it usually starts in adolescence, so I'm not sure which power structure any adolescent has access to.

Er the patriarchal power structure affects everyone, adults and children. Children are socialised into gender roles from birth basically.

I really do think female relational aggression is real and many women have experienced it, I'm sure I'm not alone in this!
How are you going to measure - do men hate women? Whatever standard you use you have to consider all factors. Violence is often cited but as I said most violent assaults by men are against men- so therefore do men hate men?

I suggest not- men hate women is a general sweeping statement that ignores things like female relational aggression, male-male violence, and sexual predation by men against women for sexual motivation. Men hate women such an over simplified statement, it's an almost useless and ignores all dynamics of human behaviour.
Think about it- what are you actually saying by "men hate women"

They are aggressive to females sometimes because of sexual motivations. I don't think it's as simple as "hate"- which suggests to me a strong dislike

I think it's because you assume hate is a conscious feeling. Most of the time it isn't. Most men do not go around actively hating women. They will often love and cherish the women in their lives. But many of them will have a real issue if a woman tries to assert power over them. That will be much stronger than if a man asserted power over them. That's when the 'hate' comes into focus. Same with the many men who are in a loving relationship, yet will degrade other women who they are not in a relationship with e.g. by harassing them, visiting strip-clubs, watching violent porn etc.

Susan most murders are male victims by other males-
In the year ending March 2015, just under two-thirds of homicide victims were male (64%, 331 victims) and one-third were female (36%, 186 victims).
Do you assert men hate men?

I understand ‘men hate women’ to mean they either actively subjugate women or are quietly happy to go along with the status quo because they are better off as a result.

I have really nice hair, it's really thick and I have always got a lot of attention because of it. One woman in particular seemed really obsessed with it, every day at the school run she'd make a somewhat bitchy comment....."oh here comes with the perfect hair'! That sort of thing. She was jealous and had obvious self esteem issues. I'll tell you this though, she wasn't plotting my demise, she didn't hate me or want apparent harm to come to me and she was one person. The same cannot be said about many men, because they are often planning the demise of some woman and of doing her harm in some way.....that's the difference. Statistics from all over the world tell us that, from rape in war, to female foetus abortion and infanticide, to FGM, to domestic abuse......why is it so hard to comprehend???

I do not think anyone is surprised that in a culture where male violence is glorified, males are violent, Missymoo.

Do men hate women is such a grotesquely over simpliefied term it is of no use at all.
as I said most murders and assaults are men on men, do men hate men? Men assert dominance over other men- do they hate men?

Do you assert men hate men?

Most male violence is territorial- e.g. fights in the pub and gang violence. And it's hard to hate your own class of people. The thing with male violence against women is that men are deliberately asserting their physical power over a physically weaker group who are incapable of retaliating. As I said, it's most of the time a totally unconscious thing and it does not mean that men in your life don't love you etc. It's more about the broader societal structures that are set up to constantly suppress women, often by violent means.

I think if men are violent towards men, and these make up most assaults murders, it's inaccurate to say men hate women on this basis. Men assert dominance over males and females, but more so other men- you cannot draw the conclusion that they hate women and are picking on them for being weaker- they are being violent indiscriminately or more actively towards other males.

I like the idea of ‘relational aggression’
Who has coined the word and who has done the studies? Men? White men?
Is it possible for them to study those things wo biais? (First rule in any research btw).

Fwiw I have never encountered the behaviour Missy is talking about.
I have encountered cliques based on class that affect both men and women.

I often think that some on this forum have an ideology to uphold and will say everything is wrong even when the evidence suggests otherwise- scientific research is biased, must be by white men- (why white males specifically btw?, Do other males of other races not apply?

Re the number of murder men vs men, i think it’s quite obvious that reasons why men kill men are different than the reasons why men kill women.

But tbh restricting this idea of ‘hate’ to murder or rape is simplying the issue to the extreme. It’s everything that is affected.
Think for example of the US government talking about abortion and contraception and deciding that abortions are a no go etc etc.
Not one woman around the table. Not one on a subject that it really totally and purely female.
Why??? Why are these men happy to put women under real hardship (eg no abortion even if you have been raped) wo a thought for women and wo even giving women a voice?
How would you define that sort of attitude in other words??

Not ready- I cannot draw any logical conclusion because the information you are presenting me with is scant. Full facts are required to look at anything objectively.
If you use a term like men hate women it's so broad, no one could ever say yes or no.

Missy because most research including medical research is done by white men and ‘trialed’ on white men.

It’s not an issue with ideology, it’s a fact.

So much so that for example, there is little research on vulvidinia (and very painful condition only women experience) but massive reasearch in men sexual dysfunction/lack of erection (which whilst annoying isn’t painful).
Trials are also done in white men in majority, so much so that actually we have no idea if medication work the same way on women or on other races (clue, it doesn’t always work. Even vaccines have been shown to not work in other ethnicities other than the whilst population).

Same of you look at who is a researcher etc....

Or historians (which means women are almost eradicated from any text books for example, despite their non negigeable role... Just like blacks aren’t part if the history etc. It’s always written fr om a white male pov)

So yes I think it’s worth asking the question