Is it time to repeal the Gender Recognition Act?

[PikesPeaked]

Surely it is time to recognise and accept that sex is genetically fixed and unchangeable?

That girl/woman and boy/man refer to specific sexes at specific states in their development.

That it is not possible to change from one to the other, but that it is possible and permissible to present yourself as either.

That nobody can be obliged to behave in a particular gendered manner. Men and women should, for example, be permitted to wear the uniform of the opposite sex (as long as it does not interfere with them carrying out their jobs).

That insisting that you are a woman with XY chromosomes, or a man with XX chromosomes, is Gender Dysphoria, a mental illness on a par with any other body dysphorias, and deserves compassionate treatment.

That appropriate treatment should be available for GD, but that hormonal or surgical treatment should be forbidden before the age of 18. This would include puberty blocking.

That there should be no more stigma to having GD than to having any other mental illness, such as depression or anorexia. And people with GD should not be discriminated against because of their condition.

That the only time 'gender' can be changed retrospectively should be in the case of proven Intersex conditions, when suitably qualified medical professionals agree that it would be in the individual's best interest.

I remember a time (the 70s/early 80s) when you could be a little girl who liked dinosaurs and lego and running around outside getting dirty and that wasn't seen as a sign that you were trying to communicate some esoteric sense of "gender" to the world.

I miss those days.

Yep - it’s kinda the elephant in the room - even the TERFiest of TERFs are, at least vocally, trying to compromise but in actual fact when you take it to the bare bones this is exactly what needs to happen. You cannot sign up for womanhood, it is bestowed upon you (I use the word “bestowed” very tongue in cheek) by good ol’ Mother Nature.

I never could’ve imagined, in those days when it felt like slow progress was being made, that we’d look back at it as something of a halcyon era.

I just don't believe it when people say that it is easier to fight new changes, than take away existing laws.

This whole threat to the sex based exemptions is based on 'simplifying' and 'streamlining'.

Surely there is an argument to be had that since gay marriage is allowed and the whole complicated mess of rights conflicting in the EA- ie transsexual rights is divisive how about simplifying thus:

1. Remove the GRC -it is an unnecessary legal fiction since same-sex marriage has become lawful.
2. Make misogyny a hate crime - might as well, while we are at it and it is a glaring ommission.
3. Make targeting people for 'gender non-conformity' a hate crime along with protecting homosexuals.

And any protections/rights of people who have the condition of gender dysphoria which may be lost could be covered by its medical certification by professionals and accessibilty legislation, similar to measures taken to include autistic people or bi-polar people in the workforce.

That would be far 'simpler' and more 'streamlined' than anything Maria Miller suggested.

The problem is that the GRA was introduced because someone took a case the European court of Human rights who ruled that people who had had surgery needed to be able to change sex a) because same sex marriage was then illegal and b) right to a private life so people wouldn't have to out themselves as trans. On the second reason if trans people are now accepted then does this still factor. No one says you have a right to conceal your birth age in favour of your new age after cosmetic surgery.

The Uk government then decided unecessariky that they would allow people with no op to transition in case of those who couldn't have surgery cos of medical conditions. But this was only voted through on the idea that it would be very few people and most wanted surgery.

However subsequently there was another case take to ECHR where I think they then ruled that no surgery was necessary. So basically we would have to take a case to ECHR to challenge this and say that their rulings fail to take into account women's rights. We would need Europe to repeal or modify their rulings before the GRA could be repealed because the ECHR rules over our laws

This is interesting, it shows the cases that were brought to the ECHR: www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Gender_identity_ENG.pdf

Note comments from the Goodwin case (which led to the creation of GRC's):

“Since there are no significant factors of public interest to weigh against the interest of this individual applicant in obtaining legal recognition of her gender re-assignment, the Court reaches the conclusion that the notion of fair balance inherent in the Convention now tilts decisively in favour of the applicant”

Repeal the GRA
Why do we have a law that creates the legal fiction of changing sex on a birth certificate? Why is there a law that redefines what it is to be a woman or man?

Repeal the Equality Act protected characteristic of 'gender re-assignment'
It was instrumental in creating a trans umbrella. It was the means by which cross-dressers, autogynephiles and fetishists crawled through a loophole to enjoy the same protections as transexuals.

There needs to be a review of the loophole. Transexuals, rightly, deserve and require protections - but not at this price.

The GRA has been shown to be dangerous and badly thought out.
It needs to go.

Yes

I agree it needs repealing it also should be used to beat labour in the same way section 28 is used to beat the tories. It is a thoroughly shite and homophobic piece of legislation which should never have seen the light of day.

Since there are no significant factors of public interest to weigh against the interest of this individual applicant in obtaining legal recognition of her gender re-assignment,

How can expecting people to lie in support of another lie not be against the public interest?

Watching with interest...

Not only is it time to push for a repeal of the Gender Recognition Act, I believe we should lobby for a Sex Recognition Act. Our sex will never be safe until we do this, it will always be vulnerable to creeping redefinition unless we have an actual, truthful, measurable and unambiguous recognition in law, that can not be identified into or out of, but is a legal acknowledgement of immutable reality.

I agree with all of this completely.

From another current thread:

Let me just state something really fucking obvious that apparently needs to be stated: You cannot mandate how people perceive the world. That is totalitarian as all living fuck. You cannot demand people perceive the world in line with your ideology and that perceiving something that ALL humans perceive is actually the same as being a genocidal racist.

This is exactly what the GRA mandates.

It is a bad law.

Agreed as others have said a party with this in their manifesto (assuming they haven't got something else crazy in there) will have my vote (which is currently going to be "none of the above".
I had high hopes for the WEP when it was initially announced, until they set out their manifesto

I feel that the GRA has served its purpose and is now outdated. with same sex marriage available now I agree that we should be legally protecting gender non-conformity.
Instead of enforcing sex stereotypes via this legal fiction. This is turn is promoting an affirmation narrative which is affecting children negatively and is at the same time undermining women’s rights to self define and to have single sex spaces.

I don’t feel that my main problem with the GRA is that it is a legal fiction in itself though. There are other legal fictions which can be useful and which can protect people including women and children.

(Like I have seen this argued around legal fictions used around legal parenthood vs biological parenthood where this which would otherwise create legal parenthood- like in the legal assumptions of ‘the child of the marriage’ and in legal parenthood that happens after legal adoption, or legal sperm or egg donation at a licensed clinic. These are legal fictions and raise complex issues for those affected. But they are also arrangements recognised by society as being benign or protective for some people hence the legal fictions to protect and support those in the relevant scenario. I can see the value in that.

So It’s not exactly because it’s a legalised lie that I object to GRA. It’s because its premise is being used against womens interests. Like the fact that as I understand it a GRC cert can never be asked for to be shown - so that in itself can be abused because others people who haven’t gone through the apparently stringent GRC requirements can just as easily claim that they have got the GRC, but there is no way of anyone checking on that because they can’t ask. Which compromises the premise of certification, surely?

Also agree with the idea of a sex recognition act as a valuable protection for women.

Yeps to this
Was i5 not Stephen whittle who boasted bout sneakin* this past the nation

And I think I recall whittle comin* on her3 to boast bout what he sneaked this law past

But could be wrong. Not unkowen to be wrong

Need rowan on case

Agree op.

I agree the GRA needs to go, nobody should be permitted to legally change sex, if there is an exception it should only be for the tiny percent of actual intersex people, not males who for whatever reason think they should be able to legally become female. People who do not to conform to stereotypes of dress etc, or choose to modify their bodies should have the same legal rights as other members of their own sex, but males should never be permitted to legally change sex and enter female spaces, groups etc. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment needs to go from Equality Act also. Sex needs to be the protected characteristic. If these men experience any discrimination it is because other men assume they are gay, so they can be protected under the protected characteristic of sexual orientation. There is no need for either the GRA or the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the EA. We have plenty of evidence now to prove both of these laws have been harmful to females rights and the policies that come from these laws are harmful to children and young people, so the legal/social experiment has failed and now needs to be abandoned.

Agree stopthisnow.

Am too tired to write anything coherent, but am agreeing with all the excellent posts. It was a massive mistake to allow this legal fiction of a “sex change” it was considered a kindness at the time, for a tiny number of feminine gay men.
It certainly isn’t a kindness now. Rapist and paedophile in a women’s prison ? Why did no one foresee this happening ?

I agree, but getting gender dysphoria changed back to body (gender) dysmorphia, and considered a mental illness would meet strong opposition. Especially from the AGPs and others who want to sanitise their own actions.

I would look to continue to shine a light on the actions of the later, not everyone who is committing crimes or who is acting in horribly misogynistic and sexually self indulgent ways in public, is mentally ill, they are just hideous people.