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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What is a non binary person?

75 replies

mummybear701 · 09/02/2018 11:56

Genuine question, this came up repeatedly in the Scottish consultation. All I could find is someone does not 'identify' as male or female. Transgender/transexual people are going from one gender to the other, often making physical changes whether through surgery or hormones. We've established a few don't but have stereotypical traits of the opposite gender they were assigned. They then want to be viewed as the other binary gender as far as possible, even if they never will be on biological grounds or in spaces women are at their most vulnerable.

Whatever way I could see it, is a non binary simply a man or woman who doesn't accept the stereotypes of either binary?

OP posts:
BlackBetha · 09/02/2018 13:42

This is a puzzle for me too. In practice, it seems to be people who don't want to be referred to as either male or female (or as a man or a woman), and want gender-neutral pronouns to be used. Some might adopt an androgynous look, but many don't change their appearance or dress in any way.

I kind of get it, in that I've always kind of seen myself as 'just me', a person who happens to be female rather than having an identity as 'a woman'. But... it's never occurred to me to give that a special label or want to be treated differently because of it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/02/2018 13:45

All I could find is someone does not 'identify' as male or female

You answered your own question. Most of the population is non-binary.

I was particularly scathing in my response. Why the fuck do they think it makes senses to have two legal sexes plus one legal gender. Fuckwits

MrsJayy · 09/02/2018 13:45

Ruby rose id as non binary (sometimes depending how she is feeling) imo i think it is a load of huey and should not be pandered too it is very snowflakey.

TheCatsPaws · 09/02/2018 13:48

No idea. I just feel like a person. I have a female body. That’s it.

OutyMcOutface · 09/02/2018 13:49

Someone who is very confused

FannyFifer · 09/02/2018 13:50

What a lot of utter crap. So is non binary meant to be the same as gender neutral?
So what does Trans non binary mean then, I noticed that's what Jack monroe says she is.

pallisers · 09/02/2018 13:53

loads of them in my dd1's school. Basically I say something like "Dana was excellent in the play, wasn't she?" and dd1 says "Dana uses "they"" which is fine by me - Dana can use anything they want.

CapnHaddock · 09/02/2018 13:53

In my experience, it's just a bollocks way for straight people in heterosexual relationships to ride the gender queer wave

BahHumbygge · 09/02/2018 13:53

"Every woman who has ever told a man to fuck off is non binary"

Sorry, forget who to attribute it to.

It's basically anyone who doesn't subscribe themselves to gender boxes and limitations. A rounded individual in other words.

Thing is, in the trans community, it's a label of exclusivity in that everyone else is constrained to their boxes (or the opposite box).

In feminist discourse, no one should be box-constrained. No one is a walking stereotype of masculinity or femininity. Smashing binary gender boxes is liberatory for everybody.

CapnHaddock · 09/02/2018 13:56

Except pallisers, Dana probably whines about being misgendered every time someone forgets that this week she's using zhe pronouns

BigFatFanny · 09/02/2018 13:58

I have a friend of a friend who identifies as none binery. He/she decides which gender he/she wants to be in the morning of each day and dresses with the chosen gender. He/she has adopted a unisex name which makes things decidedly easier.

When encountering him/her, you address her with the pronoun she's dressed for: so if she's in a shirt and jeans it's "he and him" and if he/she's in a dress or jeans and a girly top, it's "her/she".

He/ she is biologically female if that makes any difference.

Personally I have no issue with this or with addressing him/her appropriately. If he/she speaks in group chat, before I refer to him/her I always ask 'which pronouns am i using today?' and she/he has no problem with this.

What I do have a problem with though is him/her going off on an almighty facebook rant because an old friend saw him/her in the street for the first time in years and addressed her as "her" when she was dressed as a male. She had a right hissy fit about it and how intolerant the wider world is, when in actual fact everyone bends over backwards to make him/her feel accepted. The old friend who made the mistake was absolutely mortified at this rant and was really upset because she's a huge LGBT supporter. Old friend had no idea she was non-binary and wouldnt never have caused offence on purpose.

I think if you choose to live your life outside of gender norms in a state of fluidity, you can't then expect everyone else to know instinctively how to address you, that's the bit that gets to me.

isawahatonce · 09/02/2018 13:59

Someone who identifies as neither solely male or female. I don't get how that's so difficult to understand? They likely feel that 'female' doesn't fully define them and neither does 'male' so they're both/neither/something in between. I really don't get what's so confusing about this.

FissionChips · 09/02/2018 13:59

A self obsessed idiot.

ftmtb · 09/02/2018 14:01

Someone I know is non binary, she is female by birth but doesn't want to be referred to as 'she' or 'he' only 'they' however she has two names, one for when she 'feels like a female' and one for when she 'feels like a male', she will put in formal complaints in the workplace about someone who misgenders her unknowingly and shoves it down everyone's throats she meets, saying gender is a myth. Bullshit if you ask me,

today I want to be a dinosaur so everyone has to refer to me as one or ill complain Smile

pallisers · 09/02/2018 14:02

Except pallisers, Dana probably whines about being misgendered every time someone forgets that this week she's using zhe pronouns

They don't generally tbh. It is so common that everyone kind of gets on with it. I think it is just a way for teenagers to express the complexity of figuring out who you are as you become an adult. So many of the kids are bi or non binary or questioning etc. Doesn't seem to bother anyone. no one is taking puberty blockers or anything - just playing with gender - none of them adopt stereotypically feminine or masculine personas either - just continue to wear the same grungy clothes with an occasional bit of blue hair.

I am firmly in the transwomen are transwomen (not women) camp and feel very strongly about the self id and the stereotypes of femininity etc. But when I see this school, I see a place where this kind of non-binary stuff can actually be helpful for teenagers and create an atmosphere of tolerance and a lack of gender stereotyping. (there are loads of single-stall gender neutral bathrooms too).

ChampiontheWonderHamster · 09/02/2018 14:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ftmtb · 09/02/2018 14:07

Because they want attention

Omgineedanamechange · 09/02/2018 14:11

Whait fissionchips said x1000

BahHumbygge · 09/02/2018 14:11

isaw

What am I then? I never feel male or female (apart from once a month when I'm curled up in bed with a hot water bottle and a huge mug of tea waiting for the ibuprofen to kick in for period pain... then I know I'm feeling female). I simply feel like me, because I have no external reference point to what it feels like to be anyone else.

Subscribing gender to feelings, actions, lifestyle, clothing etc is sexist and reductionist. It means that if we take on the alternate set of stereotypes, we become the other sex which is patently ridiculous. Short hair, trousers & a penchant for diy on a be-vulva'ed person do not a man make.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/02/2018 14:13

They likely feel that 'female' doesn't fully define them and neither does 'male' so they're both/neither/something in between. I really don't get what's so confusing about this

In the context of the consultation it is a tad confusing that ScotGov wants to levvalt recognise 2 sexes and a gender...

DotDixie · 09/02/2018 14:14

Basically...
Sex is defined as biological i.e male and female. Gender on the other hand is a social construct i.e pink being associated with girls wasn't a thing 100 years ago. So a non binary person is some who can't identify with the "stereotypes" of a boy or a girl. So biologically they are male or female but "socially" (for want of a better word) they are neither a boy or girl. I hope that makes sense!!

DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 09/02/2018 14:16

Omfg. I would never say this to anyone directly but ^ that's the most self indulgent behaviour I've ever heard of.
And from a woman! Wink

I am afraid I cannot understand this and must either be a terrible bigot or a boring old frump as it sounds bizarre in the extreme. I cannot understand how this is accepted in the workplace.
I was a bobby. I never wore 'girls clothes' as was in boots, trousers and normal police outfit. I was no less of a woman on those days or in my civvies (jeans and a rugby shirt).
I consider my small mind well and truly boggled.

ftmtb · 09/02/2018 14:17

The girl I know will not even let people say 'feminine hygiene products' around her as she finds the word feminine offensive

DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 09/02/2018 14:17

Sorry my post was about bigfatfanny.
Loads of missed posts!

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 09/02/2018 14:20

It’s a load of bollocks.

Dresses to whatever gender ? Seriously ? So if someone wears trousers they are male ? Brilliant I have no idea how we managed to differentiate before this news.

Its essentially either someone who doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes (fine) but wants to make a fuss about it (less fine) or like the person mentioned above someone conforming to different gender stereotypes on days and thinking this is somehow progressive.