Fucking hell, India Willoughby is seriously slandering Karen Ingala Smith

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/961369339831115776

And other tweets. I think she has lost the plot.

it's just basic human attraction and actually quite nicely illustrates why the whole thing is kind of batshit

Gay men and lesbians have been coping with drastically reduced dating pools (5% of the population available to them compared to 95% for straights) without resorting to sexual coercion such as #cottonceiling or trying to rebrand sex as a sodding human right they're being denied.

I mean, I get it that this is a rotten thing being trans means you have to live with. Everyone wants to be in a dating pool large enough that the odds are good you will find someone compatible to be with. I feel for them.

But it's not an excuse to call everyone else oppressors and bigots because they're not interested in shagging you.

I’ve just had a look at IW’s tweets, she can’t be serious when she says you can change sex but not gender. What kind of mental gymnastics are required to come up with that?

Actually I think that is in line with what a lot of kool aid drinking lib fems/handmaidens/TRA's must think. Because to them, gender is what is innate. It's spiritual, almost. Gender is the most important thing because it's how you sincerely, truly feel in your heart. It's your entire essence. Sex has been reduced by them to an invconvenient penis that can either be removed or refashioned as a female sex organ, or breasts that be bound with no lasting damage. It has no meaning unless you want to be regressive and reduce people down to just their genitals, you big meanie. It isn't who you really truly are and if you don't understand that you haven't kept up with science and read about the existence of intersex people or, I don't know, flatworms (??) or something which can actually, like switch gender.

Duh

Yeah the last bit was supposed to be 'sex.' Flatworms which can change sex. Gah, i need an edit button

*I mean, I get it that this is a rotten thing being trans means you have to live with. Everyone wants to be in a dating pool large enough that the odds are good you will find someone compatible to be with. I feel for them.

But it's not an excuse to call everyone else oppressors and bigots because they're not interested in shagging you.*

Also might help if the therapists and various other people involved in the transition process were a bit more honest about this issue, so that people were mentally prepared for the reduced dating pool before it hits. Realistically someone India's age should have been able to figure it out for themselves, but with kids it seems unfair to them not find an age-appropriate way to make it clear that this is a likely consequence of transition before any irreversible steps are taken.

I read an interesting blog today which, for me, highlights perfectly this 'whataboutery'.... worth a read! victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I’m blocked too, what a fucking loser she is.

Beyond cowardly to block someone then go on a libellous rampage. Arsehole.

Shit, if only India had told Malala that you can change your sex, she could have saved herself the inconvenience of getting shot in the head by the Taliban!

Ah well, you live and learn I guess.

This is nuts. She is nuts.

The thing is, if you are a straight bloke you are not going to want a sexual relationship with someone with a penis or a fake 'vagina' made out of a penis

Yes, true. IW had no chance when she tried to get Genuwine to kiss her but I don't think "Courtney" would have had any more luck either, despite being much closer to Ashley in age and appearance, whether Courtney had a taped up penis or a fake vulva/vagina (bit clueless about the details of the op). Apologies for the CBB references - I got quite into it

Can I ask why people are calling India and other trans women 'she'? Genuinely curious and not meaning to goad. Is it out of politeness, or a belief that India really is a woman, or is it worry that Mumsnet will delete posts for 'misgendering'?
I think my fear is that everyone falling in line with the term 'trans woman' is what has led to 'trans women are women #nodebate' which would have been much harder to get to if we'd stuck with trans identified male from the start.
Also I find it strange that people willing to say India is male (online) would still then use 'she' which is just as much of a biological term as woman. I understand using preferred pronouns in face to face encounters where sex and gender aren't being discussed, but not in a gender critical discussion where a belief that a TIM is male has already been stated.

I’ve done it out of politeness as IW has fully transitioned. I don’t do it for those I consider piss takers eg. Lily Whatshisface.

It's because Mumsnet might delete our comments for 'misgendering'.

Transitioned to what though? Not to a woman because that isn't possible.

No,that’s true. I absolutely do not believe transwomen are women. Maybe I should rethink this.

I refuse to use she, I avoid pronouns. It makes sentences a bit awkward sometimes but try for the most part to not 'misgender' purely because of MN deletion policy - I have interesting things to say that must be read godammit!

I have noticed of late they are not as quick to delete and I suspect mostly leave it unless a post is reported.

good question, I dont actually know how to answer you! It just feels fair and kind I guess?

I am not sure whether or not not referring to someone by their chosen pronoun falls into the territory of being petty and hateful? I cant decide on this, obviously it is a dichotomy though, and as I no longer believe in the ‘transwomen are real women dogma’ I guess it smacks of doublethink on my part. I dont know how to comfortably reconcile this issue with myself If I am completely honest.

Ordinarily I think it falls under politeness but given that we gave an inch and they took a mile the time for politeness has passed.

Most men on social media are not polite and never have been. They get left alone. We should probably learn from that.

It's that pesky female socialisation.

Agreed Ova, however I think if we come across too harshly and unsympathetic when trying to explain our objections to those as yet ‘unpeaked’ folks, then the ‘real’ debate and key issues we have around TIM’s and gender self ID may never be heard. Like they say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

You are right though, I cannot argue your logic at all.

I would personally call them men every single time. But I don't want to be deleted.

I believe mumsnet's last announcement on the issue, was you can say they are men, as a concept, but constant misgendering is a bit off.

I often find I have written a paragraph that says they, he and she!

Sometimes depending on the context. So if I'm furiously reacting about their maleness, I will, quite automatically, say hey. If it's more general I might say she.

Yes, Lady I understand that. In a real life setting I would probably use them or if I was on a talk radio segment or something. There is a danger in some situations that getting dragged for misgendering will dilute what else you are trying to say.

On here at least not so much though. I'm grateful for that.

Besides, I do fully sympathise with those who genuinley have dysmorphia, and do want them to remain distinct from the TRA’s and AGPs. I wouldnt want to offend the former, by being appalled with the latter IFYSWIM, even though I agree that biology is frankly undeniable. In my opinion I think the appropriate pronoun usage is the fair and right middle ground, whilst still refusing to capitualte to the ‘real woman’ argument.

Maybe I havent fully peaked yet though!

MN deleted a bunch of posts in the CBB section (someone came in and informed us that they had gone back over the thread reporting like 700 posts or something ) so people feel they have to use she for India.

Though I do also use preferred pronouns for actual transsexual people, kind of like how I would use someones new name if they changed it (I do not extend this courtesy to paedophiles and rapists such though, fuck that.). I know its the thin end of the wedge and all but it just feels very..wrong not to. Maybe thats my socialization showing. I absolutely do not and never will for transwomen with penis types though

I do a lot of the time, try to avoid pronouns altogether though tbh these days.