'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members, customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

The problem with people citing safeguarding is that, safeguarding itself is a construct. The rules are manmade - they're not found in natural law.

Yes, it's based on risks recognised, identified and collated by experts, but safeguarding guidelines are updated all the time. They reflect the findings of the most recent serious case review, etc.

But if, in this whole process, the risk to a TIM who is not allowed access to a women's space is deemed to be a greater safeguarding risk than the risk to a girl of encountering said TIM in a woman's space then the safeguarding guidelines will simply be rewritten.

It seems like things are getting worse. I reached peak trans last year but I just keep hitting it again and again.

This makes me so so angry.

I think we need to start taking action, protesting. I'd be up for a mass swim too.

Don't put yourself in danger unless not doing so would hurt a trans woman's feelings seems to be the current, illogical, deeply misogynistic mantra.

The problem with people citing safeguarding is that, safeguarding itself is a construct. The rules are manmade - they're not found in natural law.

Well no. But people are talking about safeguarding in relation to child protection. Not safeguarding the gender feelz of grown men.

And if TIMs are at risk of actual violence in the men's changing rooms that's because men are violent. Which isn't a brilliant starting point for arguing that we should let them into the women's...

But if, in this whole process, the risk to a TIM who is not allowed access to a women's space is deemed to be a greater safeguarding risk than the risk to a girl of encountering said TIM in a woman's space then the safeguarding guidelines will simply be rewritten.

I agree. But currently they are obliged to follow certain processes. So if we challenge them now, there will be occasions when they are in breach.

New guidelines would have to be consulted on. This conflict of rights is now getting more publicity. I don't believe the government be able to completely rewrite quasi legal safeguarding children guidelines to prioritise the feelings of trans identified people without a huge fight and a lot of bad press. And there would be people high up nervous about overtly age obviously doing that in the full public eye because of lessons learned in past scandals.

Well no. But people are talking about safeguarding in relation to child protection. Not safeguarding the gender feelz of grown men.

No I get that, but it's the Local Safeguarding Board that sets the rules and guidelines.

I'm not suggesting for a second that it makes it ok. My point is only that if the pesky safeguarding rules are an issue then the pesky safeguarding rules will be rewritten.

I'm not suggesting for a second that it makes it ok. My point is only that if the pesky safeguarding rules are an issue then the pesky safeguarding rules will be rewritten.

And that can be challenged and highlighted. I think it's potentially a fruitful area.

Obviously they don't give a fuck about women. But they will have to at least pay lip service to the idea of safeguarding young children.

Oh yeah I didn't think you agreed

I do think safeguarding is a useful place to start though.

Don't put yourself in danger unless not doing so would hurt a trans woman's feelings seems to be the current, illogical, deeply misogynistic mantra.

Not even that...its Don't put yourself in danger unless not doing so would hurt any male persons feelings.

Given its all about self-ID. And seld-ID literally means, any male. Not a male iagnose with dysphoria, not a male who has had surgery to resmble a woman. Any male.

So we have to protect ourselves from males, while prioritizing the feelings of males. Makes no sense and is impossible. But it will still be women to blame when it all goes to shit.

It was a she. The police officers I've spoken to in 2 different forces were both women too and of senior rank. I asked them a direct unambiguous question: ' How many women have been attacked in toilets or changing rooms?' They weren't aware of a single instance.

It isn't avalanching. It's been the same since 2010 when the Equality Act came in.

NatGrad59
and yet a quick Google shows several recent news reports of attacks in womens toilets including rape.

Plus the voyerism that women find disturbing.

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/hunt-man-after-woman-raped-14104951

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/kitchen-worker-sexually-assaulted-woman-911287

Do I understand 'what 'self ID' means?' In the context of the proposed changes to the existing law it means a Statutory Declaration made in front of a Commissioner for Oaths or Magistrate. The applicant would have to swear that the change of gender is permanent and if made falsely would be a criminal offence.

NatGrad59
How does that declaration help me to make a risk assessment when faced with a male in a confined space? At the moment if he is there he is a clear risk.
I don't have to wait to be harmed before deciding its safer to try to leave, scream or get help.

As far as I'm aware the person you're quoting is an accountant and publisher of a niche heavy metal magazine. Being as we're not discussing either of those subjects I think I'll pass on their opinions.

‘Shrodinger’s Trans’ is what we’re faced with at the moment. We have no way of knowing whether the man with a penis strippping off next to us is a genuine trans woman or Dave the voyeur. In what universe is this a good thing??

How does that 'declaration help you make a risk assessment?' It doesn't. As now you don't know if someone in a changing room is a trans woman who has gone through the existing GRC process, is undergoing transition, not undergoing transition or not trans at all but perhaps not trans at all. What do you do? Exclude everyone who doesn't meet a set standard? Who will decide who gets to swim and who does not? Do we have to produce birth certificates at the door?

How are they going to police 'falsely' exactly seeing as someone can be transgender now without any change to their physical appearance, no hormones, no surgery, nothing.

In this situation a man could become legally a woman and his mates down the pub would never know about it. Except it would give him the legal right to hang around female changing rooms.

Given the lengths various men have gone to in the past to stalk and creep on women and girls what makes you think some won't abuse this?

These aren't involving trans people.

These aren't involving trans people.

So? It's still the law of self declaration that provides the loophole for them to do this.

What do you do? Exclude everyone who doesn't meet a set standard?

Yes. The set standard for being in a women's changing room has traditionally been and should remain "is female".

You also can't ask someone to prove they have a grc. So the bloke waving his bits around in front of your 8 year old daughter cannot be challenged, even if he neither feels like a woman nor has ever claimed to.

freakingpeaking
I am not accusing transgender women of being a threat to children.
I am saying that self ID allows any man, including sex offenders and paedophiles to access women and children under the guise of self identification. And given the horrendous rates of sexual assaults, covert filming of women and children, 'upskirting' etc I believe that these are totally legitimate concerns.

I also question why there is such a massive campaign to access women's spaces. Respectful men who transition wouldn't make these demands. But I can see that autogynephiles - men with a sexual fetish for being treated as a woman - would be very keen on access. These are the people I believe should be kept out and I have yet to hear any advocate for trans imposition on sex segregated spaces address this.