'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members, customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

NatGrad59
Why are you against the 3 spaces solution? I've posted it twice and you've ignored it.
Men, women, gender neutral.

Whatever % of the population TIMS are wont affect men at all but banning women only spaces and services will affect 100% of women.

Because I know quite a few trans people and they'really nothing like the monsters you're portraying. Because when I hear the calls for special facilities for trans people I remember the same things for other groups decades ago. The bulk of people here seem to be afraid of trans people. I just see people. I don't condemn anyone because they're different.

No, you are being disingenuous now. No one is talking about trans people except you.

Self ID will mean all men can access all womens spaces, and women wont be able to challenge them.

What is wrong with having 3 spaces?

I'm all for women only spaces but not as a knee jerk response. As for gender neutral facilities do you really think there will be a sufficient for trans people when they are so few? Businesses and local authorities won't spend money when there is little actual risk of harm.

Its not a knee jerk response.
Its not trans people who are the problem.
Its predatory men who are the problem, just as it has always been. You claim to be a police officer who is completely unaware of male pattern violence.

Women only spaces are not a knee jerk response though. Sex segregated facilities have been long established for very good reason. There is actual risk of harm by not having them which is why they existed long before trans was ever a thing.

Sure, Nat, everyone has taken the time that they have to think this through and attempt to explain their positions to you because their knees are jerking.

The problem we have, Nat, is that today's transactivism has nothing to do with the old-school transsexuals that some of us have encountered, the sort who just want to get on with their lives and be accepted. The movement has been completely hijacked by violent, misogynistic, Men's Rights Activists. Most of them don't give a shit about people with gender dysmorphia, in fact some "transactivists" actively despise people like your friends. It's no good saying that these people are not real trans people, because they are, in effect, the face of, and the agenda behind, the trans movement now. And they are sinister, violent, and hate women. They cannot wait for self-ID because it will allow them to set about tearing down rights and spaces that they believe women should never have had in the first place.

And how on earth are women-only spaces a "knee-jerk response"? We already have them, have done for decades!

Self ID is the problem (she says again) - not trans people.

I have to say that trans pressure groups are doing themselves no favours with their #nodebate approach to democratic change and having poster girls like the charming Marie Dean :
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/01/marie-dean-story-shows-there-s-no-simple-answer-how-we-treat-transgender

I have no problem with individuals - I have a problem with a tyrannical and authoritarian movement that is bullying women by attempting to change society in ways that cause actual harm and refusing to discuss and debate - just to silence and blame and bully women into accepting their deluded view of womanhood. The transgender women I know are equally horrified at what is happening.

To me, this is an issue. How can there be a behaviour which may or may not be criminal and there's absolutely no way of telling whether it is or not?

This is a really good point. Perhaps we should just wipe indecent exposure and voyeurism off the statute books.

Businesses and local authorities won't spend money when there is little actual risk of harm.

They would have to provide if that was the law. Luckily they can just expect women to move aside for trans identified males.

Because I know quite a few trans people and they'really nothing like the monsters you're portraying

I have a transsexual cousin. She is not a predatory male, but she is male and accepts that.

Transsexual people are not the problem. Transsexual people can already use womens spaces on the whole, we have a kind of honour system going on where we pretend we do not know they are male generally. It is predatory males, who say they are trans to gain access to women and children, that are the problem. And there are a lot of predatory males. Not all males obviously, before that comes up. But enough for us to need sex segregated areas, that are segregated by sex.

So you think we should do away with sex segregation alltogether? If not, then I don't actually understand your stance.

As for males pretending to be trans, or are actually trans, who have abused women in women only areas..a transperson has compiled this, was linked on the other thread

translesbianpositivity.tumblr.com/post/170520246550/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-list

Not all trans, not all males, but enough for it to be a problem.

Also, pidgeons post on here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3160791-adult-males-can-now-shower-with-girls-at-swimming-pools?msgid=75417453

Pidgeon is a transsexual woman. Pidegen knows that this will not help transsexual people and will only help fetishists and predatory males.

These aren't transsexuals that are being 'allowed' in (I think many are thinking of it like that in their head)

It is the AGP's, the sexual predators, the cross dressers who will be aroused by being in the women's changing rooms.

Its important to realise that this is not about transsexual people.

I'm not particularly interested in compromising women's boundaries so that businesses can save money. Odd argument to make in a feminist space, no?

Because when I hear the calls for special facilities for trans people I remember the same things for other groups decades ago.

Here comes the false analogy with Jim Crow racial segregation. Women are the persecuted and disadvantaged class here, not men.

I'm not particularly interested in compromising women's boundaries so that businesses can save money.

Me neither. These arguments and the particular sneery tone seem awfully familiar...

Honestly, swimming - it's generally supervised (we're talking UK public leisure centres at least, plus plenty popular private gyms). Why is this an issue? I mean seriously if we had a grown up conversation about this, I fail to see why we couldn't get past nudity=sexual. Many other European countries manage this in spas and honestly, IME it's not at all uncomfortable.

Women only spaces are not a knee jerk response though. Sex segregated facilities have been long established for very good reason. There is actual risk of harm by not having them which is why they existed long before trans was ever a thing.

Yes. You would think that women were just randomly deciding today that we want those men out of our changing rooms and such. Sex segregation has been around for bloody ages, and obviously the only way to segregate them are by sex.

Most of them don't give a shit about people with gender dysmorphia, in fact some "transactivists" actively despise people like your friends.

Yes, this is also true. Search 'truscum' if you do not believe us. These people actively hate transsexual people. They say dysphoria is not even a requirement of being trans for gods sake..saying trans people have dysphoria is transphobic these days.

mirandayardley.com/en/this-week-i-have-learned-that/

Very short piece on 'truscum' here, frm a transsexual person. The rest of her writing is great too and gets straight to the point

And if you know nothing about autogynephilia...

mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/
mirandayardley.com/en/a-history-of-autogynephilia/

These are the people we want out. And these are the very people that these new rules will allow in. Not transsexual people, who are already 'in'. It will help both autogynephiles, and sexual predators. Not people like your friends.

Honestly, swimming - it's generally supervised (we're talking UK public leisure centres at least, plus plenty popular private gyms). Why is this an issue? I mean seriously if we had a grown up conversation about this, I fail to see why we couldn't get past nudity=sexual. Many other European countries manage this in spas and honestly, IME it's not at all uncomfortable.

Do you disagree with sex segregation full stop then? Are women who don't want to change infront of men just prudes and should get over it? Regardless of the reason they do not want to change infront of men?

Does this extend to all sex segregated areas? Or just changing rooms? Loos? Refuges? Prisons?

I am genuinely interested in your answers by the way, I am not being goady or attacking. I just don't understand those who reckon everyone is being hysterical about the loss of sex segregation.

Also I have never ever seen a supervised changing room when swimming.

This seems to be a knee jerk response because this thread happened after the Daily Mail published a piece on Tuesday February 6. Swim England published their guidance on December 1 2017. www.swimming.org/swimengland/guide-engaging-trans-people-swimming/
The intro says Swim England consulted with Stonewall which has a Chief Executive who is a non trans woman and Gendered Intelligence which has a trans man as its Chief Executive. The RYA published its statement on inclusion of trans people in sailing in July 2016.
I think getting a balance between the needs of women who I passionately believe should have safe women only spaces and achieving equality for trans people needs very careful consideration. What I want to see is a proper consultation with equality impact statements. I posted on here because frankly I'm sick of reading all these accusations and hearing it discussed in the media. I've tried to raise some points from the other side of the argument that have been put to me. I won't be posting again.

This thread was made before the daily mail story was posted.

How do you think women can have safe spaces, while allowing any male person in? It makes no sense. There is no middle ground.

Well, I tell a lie, what we did have was a pretty decent middle ground. The honour system, where women turned a blind eye to transitioned people. What we have now, is males, as they are, just demanding access. And some people falling over themselves to give it.

A poster here told the Daily Mail. Well done her.

And supervised swimming changing rooms?! Where?!

i think the daily mail can follow social media without being told

I'm sure. But I'm glad she did anyway.

You only have to go on a dating site to realise pretty quickly that there are a lot of men out there eager to expose themselves to women. Swim England has just given all these individuals an open invitation into the women's changing room.

Of course they won't all take it up, but some of them will. And even if only one or two do, and frighten or upset a roomful of women, the most likely outcome is that those women (and their children) will just stop going swimming