'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members, customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

At least 46 of 10,000 male sex offenders in prisons claim a trans identity. There may be more because some may already be accommodated in the female estate. That's at least 4.6% of male sex offenders who identify as trans. Since we are told that somewhere between 0.3% and 0.5% of males identify as trans, you can see that identifying as trans comes with an increased risk to women and girls.

That's why this is a safeguarding issue, Nat. You might find those figures difficult to read, but too bad.

Our safeguarding procedures and legislation have developed over decades and usually in response to some kind of abuse scandal - teachers, sports coaches, Catholic priests. the BBC and Jimmy Savile. We already know all the risk factors. One of them is a paraphilia for cross dressing. This, under self-ID, includes that cross dressing population as trans. And now we are supposed to disregard decades of knowledge and understanding so that a few men with identity disorders can increase risk for millions of girls?

(By the way, there are only 126 female sex offenders currently in prison. And even a few of those may actually be born males! This is why it is a safeguarding risk based on male offending.)

A man with a male penis disrobing in front of a strange woman is committing a crime. A man with a ladypenis disrobing in front of a strange woman apparently isn't. And to add to the confusion, nobody other than its owner has any reliable way of telling whether a penis is male or female.

To me, this is an issue. How can there be a behaviour which may or may not be criminal and there's absolutely no way of telling whether it is or not?

AngryAttackKittens

Broken record is how we need to be,

No - men can't access women's safe spaces just because they want to.
No - self ID allows the perverts to 'hide' in plain sight.
No - no men with sexual fetishes in changing rooms, showers, as bra fitters, as health care professionals etc. etc

One woman or child abused via self ID is one too many

I love you ladies

I think I have been 'random other woman' and yes, absolutely, we don't need a body count to say no.

I want a 'piss off this is the ladies' T-shirt.

Because I think it will adversely affect the non trans friends I've got who get challenged all the time because they don't fit gender stereotypes. I also think that if we're going to say that trans women have got to go into male changing rooms then trans men will have to come into female changing rooms. How will I know if the bearded naked man next to me with a penis is a trans man or not? Nobody seems to be talking about this.

NatGrad59

3 spaces; mens, womens, gender neutral.

job done.

And - obvious disclaimer - I hate the word 'ladies' so apologies for using it twice once in the context of wanting it on a T-shirt

I've seen the results of gender reassignment surgery for trans men and nobody is going to be mistaking what trans men end up with for an actual penis.

The increasing pressure being put on GNC people to prove that they're in the right space is the result of trans activism's pushing off boundaries making a lot of people feel unsafe. Those of us paying attention have watched those incidents rise along with the demands that male people IDing as trans be allowed to access any space they want to, and can see the trend. If your GNC friends are being hassled more, it was trans activism that did that. The solution is not to remove all boundaries and just hope that women and girls will be OK.

You'd like to let men into the women's changing rooms so that your two friends who look like men don't get challenged for being there.

And that, in your view, overrides the potential for women and girls to be sexually harassed and abused?

O-kay.

Wow so I could just rock up at a boat club, pay a fiver (or whatever) not hand over any personal details (like name etc) and just jump in a boat and go off sailing and that's fine? Because if that doesn't actually happen I'm not sure that comparing your situation to a public swimming pool is that relevant.

Nat
So the whole of womankind has to accept men invading our spaces because you have two non trans friends who get challenged?

And the reason nobody talks about transmen is because (quelle surprise) they are not bullying their way into men's sex segregated spaces.

Start arguing for 3 spaces - men. women and gender neutral and I'll join the campaign. Just stop sacrificing the safety of women and children in favour of those seeking their own personal validation by invading women's spaces.

3 spaces. What would be the objection?

I'm trying to stay out of the liberal feminism thread because there's enough potential for a bunfight already, but I feel like the individualism versus collective class analysis libfem/radfem split is very nicely illustrated by the most recent part of this conversation.

And none of them pass do they? Let's be honest here. Not IRL. Maybe on Instagram.

We're completely primed to recognise man/woman. Almost as though we were members of a sexually dimorphic species.. .

Can we organise a mass swim? Let's all self id as male and go to the mens only pool in hampstead heath.

Can we do it when the weather warms up a bit?

< me in cold water

I'd be up for a swim if I was in London but maybe in July or August rather than in the winter...

But I don't think the men's pond is open to TIFs is it?

Just the women's plus ca change

We're completely primed to recognise man/woman. Almost as though we were members of a sexually dimorphic species.. .

This is so true IW fully peaked me on this one. In professional photos they pass well but as soon as I saw CBB footage it was unmistakable what the reality was.

I do find your figures difficult to read. 46 as a percentage of 10000 is .46% So less than a half of one percent of male sex offenders are trans women. I condemn totally the actions of those individuals. However, even taking your lowest figure of 0.3% of the male population being trans that means they number around 100000. So 46 trans sex offenders is too small a number to base a safeguarding risk assessment on.

I think that's the case. I might be wrong but I thought it was just the women's pond.

I love the women's pond. I wanted to take dd there the summer she was 8.

Now I'm worried it'll be full of young men with blue hair showing off and it'll spoil something I thought was going to be a little bit special. Because women's places are a bit special. Because women are a bit special.

Why do you want to change things Nat?

Just for your two mates? You need to do better than that. Why?

Yeah it's a fiver at the lake I use. You have to put the phone number of a next of kin. And if the water temp is below 10°c you have to wear a wetsuit which means going in the changing rooms and stripping off. So a perfect parallel.

A man with a male penis disrobing in front of a strange woman is committing a crime. A man with a ladypenis disrobing in front of a strange woman apparently isn't. And to add to the confusion, nobody other than its owner has any reliable way of telling whether a penis is male or female.

I think I can see the endgame here. After we've had a couple of years of having to put up with ladydick in the changing rooms, we'll be deemed to be accepting of dick. No problem. That means we'll be fine seeing dick, full stop. Men can just show us their dicks wherever and whenever they like. After all it wouldn't be fair to men that don't want to get a GRC (they want to carry on enjoying their gender pay gap, naturally) to have to be more circumspect than TIMs. It hurts their feelings that we only accept one kind of dick, and that it's not theirs.