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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S changing room policy

455 replies

iamawoman · 02/02/2018 07:27

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Debbie6666 · 02/02/2018 23:26

TallulahWaitingInTheRain

It makes lots of assumptions and completely overlooks the fact that many trans prisoners require special security facilities for their own protections which are provided for in those facilities which also house sex offenders.

What do I make of it. Its so full of holes a cullender would seem a good use.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 23:26

You have made this assertion quite frequently, Perhaps you would like to quote a bit more of the study which found that particular soundbite.

Perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence that trans identified males offend any less than other males? Given that half the trans identified males in prison are there for sex offences?

The report for Littlehey, another sex offender-only jail, covering the period to January 2017, says there are 11 trans prisoners. At Whatton, another prison housing exclusively sex criminals, the 2016 report says there are 12 trans inmates.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 23:27

What do I make of it. Its so full of holes a cullender would seem a good use.

How's that cake Debs?

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 23:30

Go on, lets go through all the holes, point by point.

Doctordid · 02/02/2018 23:36

This is my friends local swimming baths this week. This is why I have issues with Gender Neutral changing rooms UNLESS they have full wall to floor doors.

M&S changing room policy
Myunicornfliessideways · 02/02/2018 23:38

But but but you're all being hysterical!

I don't care if men wave their willies at me all day while I change and have smear tests, it would be lovely! So fuck off every other woman who isn't me!

But the statistics you're quoting might be dodgy if if if if ....

No. Enough with the disingenuous bullshit, which has been debunked sixty million times. Out of patience for reasoning with the whining and wittering and the Whataboutery, and the belief that women have to argue and defend and prove to the nth degree to be allowed to keep privacy from men who want their psychology validated.

No. Not doing it. Now where do I sign up to action against stores buying into this rubbish?

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 23:39

Well said.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 23:42

So according to Debbie the rate of criminality was super high in the pre-1980 cohort, at which time gatekeeping was far stricter than it is now, and we're supposed to find that reassuring?

Um, no.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 23:44

Enough with the disingenuous bullshit, which has been debunked sixty million times.

This is why I was a bit short with the lady from Norway who turned out to be perfectly nice earlier (which I feel bad about). After years of dealing with Debbie, Rat, and friends you kind of hit an "oh FFS are you serious with this shit?" stage.

Debbie6666 · 02/02/2018 23:45

Ereshkigal

The cake was great thanks, Just about got it all finished in time for Xmas day despite the late start.

Ereshkigal · 02/02/2018 23:47

So according to Debbie the rate of criminality was super high in the pre-1980 cohort, at which time gatekeeping was far stricter than it is now, and we're supposed to find that reassuring?

Um, no.

YY. Then they were actually more likely to be poor souls with gender dysphoria, rather than fetishistic cross dressers or hyper misogynistic narcissists like the transactivists we know and love today.

Debbie6666 · 02/02/2018 23:50

AngryAttackKittens

Well your supposed to be reassured by the figures relevant to the last 40 years which were that the crime rate for transwomen falls to reflect that of the female population. But this is mumsnet so i'm not surprised you took my comment out of context to make your point of painting all trans people as sex offenders

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 23:55

Even if you were right about that, Debbie, which you're not, do you think that the pre 1980 cohort have all vanished in a puff of smoke? Because most of those people are still around and just as much of a threat as ever.

The attempt to explain their criminality away as "well people were mean to trans women back then" was a nice touch.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 23:56

that the crime rate for transwomen falls to reflect that of the female population

Love the Freudian slip, also.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 23:57

Oh wait, thought you said "fails" there, which would have been the first true statement you would have made so far in this thread.

Debbie6666 · 03/02/2018 00:19

From the Author of the misrepresented study. (Apologies it was pre and post 1989 not 1980)

Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

WhoWants2Know · 03/02/2018 00:19

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here worked in a shop with lockable changing rooms, especially those with floor to ceiling doors?

While secure, unisex cubicles seem like a good solution to current issues around gender and safety, it also creates a whole host of other issues for retailers because nasty people use them for the wrong purposes.

People can be awful, and a private lockable space in public can quickly turn into a handy space for stealing, smoking, urinating, defecating, graffiti, sex, drug use, or just somewhere warm to kip.

As much as we all might want retailers to provide a secure unisex space for changing, there are reasons they were initially designed with flimsy curtains or shallow doors. They were created that way to satisfy the demands of "modesty", without offering enough privacy to allow customers to trash the place and cost the store loads more money.

I don't think there's any workable solution coming. I think a third, "neutral" space would be rejected by trans people who want to be included in the space which fits their identities.

Personally I can't even be bothered with fitting rooms anymore. If something doesn't fit, I'll take it back.

Datun · 03/02/2018 00:22

Debbie6666

There has only been one survey. It does show that transwomen commit crimes that correlate with the male population in general.

The difference in the two cohorts was made statistically meaningless, because only one was transwomen only. The other included transmen. Thereby diluting the results.

Interestingly, after the author of the survey stated that transwomen retain male pattern criminality, she was targeted by transactivists.

So women decided to drill down into the survey to counter the accusations that it was wrong.

The problem with the survey is that it was small. But it is the only one of its kind.

I will post the analysis, once I have been given permission to reproduce it.

Women have been told for several years that because transwomen identify as women, they are less of a threat than natal men. Which is why women should accept them in their spaces.

So a YouTube video was compiled called 'this never happens', a reflection of what women were being told.

But, they were then subsequently told that the men in the video weren't really trans. (This was before the new definition of trans that means anyone who says they are).

So they compiled another video. This time of men who had either identified as women for a number of years (showing 'authenticity') or were officially representing the trans community. To counter the claims that they were not genuine transwomen.

Both videos are available on YouTube.

As new crimes were committed, the YouTube videos became outdated.

So a Facebook page was set up. Also called this never happens.

It is updated regularly with new crimes.

m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462#!/groups/1722756661380462

There is also the terf is a slur website. I don't think it documents arrests, but certainly crimes constituting threats of violence towards women.

terfisaslur.com/

Trans crimes Uk was also set up. There are others in other countries with the same name. To document arrests, convictions and categorising the crimes under different sections.

transcrimeuk.com/

This also the publically available threats of violence/rape that women constantly receive for questioning the ideology.

There are many Facebook pages and Twitter handles that document them.

The prison survey also had to be done by women.

The information, unbelievably, had not been collected.

So women, painstakingly, went through every single prison inspection report to compile a list. To counter claims that this never happens.

They concluded that of the transwomen in prison, almost half were there for sex offences.

Coincidently, after their survey appearing in the mainstream press, and transactivists rubbishing it on Twitter, the Ministry of Justice compiled their own report.

Which showed that the women had actually underestimated the figures. (Which they had done deliberately, in order to ensure they were not accused of bias.)

And finally, on the subject of prisons. There are currently 14,000 men in prison for sex offences, and about 120 women.

If self identification goes through, it will really be rather moot as to whether or not those 14,000 men identify as trans. As self identification to gain a GRC will give them automatic rights to the female estate.

I would like to add that really is a complete pain in the arse for women to have to constantly refute, what most people can see with their own eyes.

To spend time countering claims that they know arent true. Only to have the goalposts subsequently moved with a whole fresh set of claims.

Woman's boundaries should not be up for question in this manner.

Anyway, that's my argument, backed up by as much evidence as there is available.

Do you have any evidence that says transwomen do not commit crime at the same rate as men?

AngryAttackKittens · 03/02/2018 00:24

Yeah, I'm not inclined to place much weight on the study author's attempts to walk back her own conclusions after political pressure was brought to bear on her.

OvaHere · 03/02/2018 00:26

Datun Well done. So clearly laid out. Flowers

UpstartCrow · 03/02/2018 00:29

The problem with letting men in who self identify, is that someone has to be harmed to keep that one individual out of that one changing room.

The people who are willing to let children and women be harmed are welcome to use a third gender neutral space where all are welcome, and work out the problems in there.

Man accused of taking photographs of children in leisure centre changing room
www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/bolton/15910279.Man_accused_of_taking_photographs_of_children_in_leisure_centre_changing_room/

archive.is/dwb3N

Doctordid · 03/02/2018 00:34

Upstart that's my friends local swimming pool. It has had mixed changing rooms for a while.
According to the op I saw the staff at the swimming centre have said that there have been three complaints already about this man and asked her to keep it quiet.

Debbie6666 · 03/02/2018 00:38

AngryAttackKittens She did not walk back anything, the claim was clearly there in the original study.

Crime rate
Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

So in essence the only formal study found no male like crime behaviour in the post 1989 cohort.

Datun · 03/02/2018 00:41

AngryAttackKittens

I think what she actually said was that her survey didn't say that transwomen are rapists or more likely to rape. I can imagine where that accusation came from.

The reason she said that is because her survey didn't specify the crime. Just categorised crimes as violent and non-violent.

And one of her cohorts included women identifying as men which skewed the results.

The doctor who drilled down into the survey after the author was targeted is working on a document that can be shared and easily read.

To be honest, I have trouble reading her current analysis and the author's analysis because of all the scientific symbols and 'stat speak'.

But the wording in the conclusion is clear.

I will post the (hopefully) more easily readable, analysis when she produces it.

Theowlinthepussyhat · 03/02/2018 00:42

@WhoWants2Know - not quite the same thing, but a family member, until quite recently ran a manned tanning salon. Three tanning machines, the space inside each was half changing area with a stool, mirror, bin, wet wipes, lockable door etc, and the other half of the space was the tanning part.

Despite the fact that there was a customer toilet, the amount of times the bin was used as a toilet was unbelievable. I thought I'd not led a sheltered life until I helped my relative out a few times, but this was beyond anything I'd encountered. How someone can walk in, have a laugh with whoever's working, and then expect them to clear up after you in that way is beyond me.

And yes, we knew who it was.