Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

[Fairenuff]

I know it's probably been done to death but it used to be so simple.

There were men and women. All kinds of different people but two sexes.

But now no-one can define what a woman is.

We know it's not clothes, hair or make-up
We're being told it's not having a vagina, periods or child bearing
It's nothing to do with the male/female brain

So what is it? Is it purely down to chromosones?

And if it is, how can people without female chromosones still say that they are a woman?

And the weightlifting person.

This is not unusual in women's sports any more. Men dominate womens cycling, fell running, weight lifting and boxing.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/transgender-female-boxer-gives-female-opponent-concussion-breaks-her-eye-so

''In addition to the damaged orbital bone that required seven staples, Brents received a concussion. In a post-fight interview this week, she told Whoa TV that "I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life."

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because [he] was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”

His “grip was different,” she added. “I could usually move around in the clinch against...females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch.”''

You don't know much about women's amateur sport, do you, Rat ?

Chances are with women's rugby being a minority sport, there will only be one league they can play in. Google Lauren Jeska. Google Hannah Mouncey. Google Fallon Fox. Google Gabrielle Ludwig.

This is going to completely fuck women's sport.

Also there was the running squad in the USA at a school.

In the USA sport is a big deal as you can get scholarships to university, when you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it.

Trans girls are already or are on the verge of taking those places from girls. And, no-one seems to care.

You do surely realise, that "transwomen are men" means the same as "men cannot be women" which was simply a paraphrasing of the reason why she may be taken to court as discussed just minutes before.

Roller derby in the US has also been changed completely, from what I've heard. A lot of women giving up, it's a contact sport and the TW competing are just much bigger stronger, and play with max aggression. Many more injuries, people leaving.

This is a big deal as roller derby, as I understand it, was a niche sport that was massively predominantly female and has taken years to grow into a really big thing, but it was a big women's thing that women did together, it was theirs. As such, it is something that many TIMs are keen to join. Because it's a very female thing to do.

We are allowed to "resort to biology", though. It's not illegal (yet) to acknowledge that human reproductive biology is a thing that exists.

And I don't know, I've seen a lot of pain and a lot of passion from the trans people I've known. They really are invested in the reality of their experience

So are people who believe that the Rapture is coming, or that their children are possessed by demons that must be cast out in various unpleasant ways. So are some people who're mentally ill. Doesn't mean that their subjective feelings should have the force of the law behind them or that other people should be compelled to act as if they believe the same things.

Nor does it mean that women as a whole should be obliged to go along with any of this stuff because you personally are having a hard time reconciling "these people seem genuinely upset" with what the logical part of your brain is telling you.

Yes, Gabrielle Ludwig took a women's college sports scholarship from a woman in her twenties who could have had it, despite being technically ineligible (having played men's college basketball in his twenties, so already having had one bit at the cherry) and being in his fifties - such was the advantage conferred by being significantly over 6 foot and towering a whole head above the rest of his team.

It's a recurring theme. Man who is relatively crap (middling amateur) in sport as a man transitions at an age when most athletes of both sexes are retiring, and suddenly becomes world-beating as a middle aged woman. (Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard).

It's so obviously unfair I can't get my head round why people can't see it. We're well into Ron L Hubbard aliens from outer space territory in terms of the suspension of all respect for scientific evidence and the evidence of one's own senses.

Rat you are being disingenuous

YY.

“It's unlikely, given the league structures within organised sport, that they'd come up against an individual whose strengths or abilities were so vastly different to their own.”

Why do you think this?

For me, the most maddening thing about TRA insistence on being called women and only women, is that medically it is not in their interest (indeed nor in transmens interest) to conceal their original sex from doctors etc. In emergency situations there could be all kinds of ramifications to no one knowing what's really inside, and I'm not talking gynae things. There are differences between male and female bodies, I'm not a doctor so I can't list them but I will just link to this interesting article on women's hearts because it sort of hints at what I'm getting at.
myheartsisters.org/2010/11/14/womans-heart-cf-mans/

RatRolyPoly, you appear to have missed my posts, so I hope it's ok if I re-ask/comment:

the real problem is that in order to widen the definition to include "some men" - those who "identify" as women - in reality the definition of woman has to include all men, simply because there is no way of proving which men identify as women

"woman" will therefore mean "adult human"

Do you accept that?

Also: how do you include "anyone who identifies as a woman" in sex-segregated women's spaces, but exclude "men"?

Do you have a way of doing that?

If not, then I'd really like to hear your take on whether sex segregation should be completely done away with (sport, changing rooms, prisons, support groups, refuges, etc etc).

And if not, how do you propose to segregate the right type of women/men? Do you exclude women who feel like men? Do you exclude people who sometimes feel like men and sometimes feel like women?

I just don't understand how it would be possible.

There are plenty of countries that will encourage male athletes down the trans route in order to get wins at olympic etc level. They do all sorts of stuff to them legal and illegal already, it's really not a stretch to see that they will get a pretty good but not a-list athlete, all they need to do is get their testosterone down to a level that is still at bottom range of normal for men (and well above the top end of normal for women, 2.5 x I think it is) and bob's your uncle.

My 16 year old is faster and stronger than 16 year old girls who play the same sports as he does who have been training the same number of years. The gap starts to show at about 12/13.

Sorry only read the first page but the OP made an interesting point about the OED. If it defines the word women by referencing biology could they then be guilty of a hate crime? And if so, well... how are they going to define the word women?

I just looked and at the moment:

NOUN plural women

1. An adult human female.

Then you have places like Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death and trans-ing fixes that - their women's football team is mainly "ex" chaps I think? Out there they are highly likely to have had full surgery I imagine, because what they are doing is "correcting" gay people so you'd need the right-ish bits and bobs.

Like the Iranian women's football team which at one point contained 8 biological males.

Here is a boy who is going to take a girl's scholarship

And something else I don’t understand. What is so wrong with being a transwoman?

Nothing.

Well they are adult humans who are female or identify as such, so that one's covered, right?

So this is what I'm talking about. People are out there saying that a person with a penis can call themselves a woman.

Where is that written Rat? Where is the legislation? Or is this something that you and your friends are campaigning for?

Have you really thought this through? You are determined to stand by that definition?

Why are transsexuals male to female not real women? I think being female is in your head.
Being a woman or a girl or being female is semantics.

It has been done to death.

Why not read the thread mrs goldberg and then you will see what different people believe and why.

If I said that, to me, identifying as a woman means having long hair and liking the look of my legs in dresses, and you said it was knowing you have two x chromosomes, it doesn't mean either of us isn't a woman. So I don't think "what it means" - and that being universal - really matters as much as one might think

But if you said that and you had a penis, it would mean one of us was not a woman, wouldn't it? And that is the point!