Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

306 replies

Fairenuff · 28/01/2018 12:08

I know it's probably been done to death but it used to be so simple.

There were men and women. All kinds of different people but two sexes.

But now no-one can define what a woman is.

We know it's not clothes, hair or make-up
We're being told it's not having a vagina, periods or child bearing
It's nothing to do with the male/female brain

So what is it? Is it purely down to chromosones?

And if it is, how can people without female chromosones still say that they are a woman?

Confused
OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 20:54

I'm definitely going to reread 1984. I did a few years ago but want to again soon. An audiobook would be great. I'll look at audible I think.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/01/2018 20:59

1984 is definitely worth a read.

(Kinda irrelevant but book recommendations would be less frustrating than trying to counter the waffly "oh I'm sure if will be fine" stuff.)

Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 21:01

hoardes of predatory men saying anything they need to say to get into the ladies' loos, and that no-one will have the ounce of intelligence required to find a legal way to stop them if they do.

I'm sure there must be a legal way of excluding specific men when all men can legally self id as women and it's completely illegal to discriminate on the grounds of gender identity? Common sense will definitely prevail. Right?

AngryAttackKittens · 30/01/2018 21:06

Common sense has been working out great so far, right?

I'm still not over the giant bloke who's playing on a women's Aussie football team who's already broken one player's leg and people were still banging on about transphobia when he wasn't allowed to be part of the draft for the women's league.

Original poster
Fairenuff · 30/01/2018 21:19

Oh dear. Since being backed into a corner, Rat has come out fighting. Reverting to type. What a shame.

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 30/01/2018 21:22

Well I guess this has been useful. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 21:23

m.youtube.com/watch?v=vhVWzkbAW4I

Managed to find a YouTube link for the TED talk I mentioned earlier. "His and Hers... Healthcare".

Among other points she talks about how there was a meta analysis carried out to find the best treatment for heart disease in women and apparently 65% of all the studies had to be discarded as although they had included women, their analysis didn't differentiate between women and men, so was useless for the purpose of the study. That is what will happen. Men will skew results of trials meant to help women.

It's less than 15 mins and well worth a watch.

Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 21:24

Hopefully it's been useful to lurkers.

LangCleg · 30/01/2018 22:21

Well I guess this has been useful. So long and thanks for all the fish.

LOL. Is that a sealion admission?!

Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 22:27
Grin
ILoveDolly · 30/01/2018 22:30

Thank you for that link @ereshkigal

ILoveDolly · 30/01/2018 22:33

YY @ereshkigal I always suspected diagnosis and treatment, as well as research, is currently hard enough, without the omission of critical information such as biological sex of the patient.

Ereshkigal · 30/01/2018 22:38

Exactly. And as she says, they only started including women in clinical trials and looking at sex based medicine and approaches in the 90s. And now we're going to throw that away?

Datun · 30/01/2018 23:43

rat

Here is a list of the women's rights that will be lost if anyone can identify as a woman.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/transgender-rights-the-elimination-of-the-human-rights-of-women/amp/

The list is by no means exhaustive.

I've done a quick skim, and 16 of those examples have already happened. And been subject to threads on here.

I can't see the one that applies to single six accommodation for children/teens.

But the girl guides, which now accepts boys, have a policy that you have overnight accommodation according to gender, not sex.

Which means that boys can sleep in the same dorm as girls. It also has the policy that the parents are not to be told.

There is a poster on here who assigns overnight accommodation for adults. She is forced to go by what gender they say, not sex. And is in the unfortunate position of having to decide to put a man with a woman, based on his gender identity. There is nothing she can do about it.

I realise now that you are basing your decision on numbers (along with which position tarmishes your image least). How likely is it to happen?

Which is a stance, of sorts.

I find it extraordinary that you are willing to actually forgo legal rights for women, on the basis that it might not be as bad as we think.

To validate men.

Maryz · 31/01/2018 00:38

If you accept that some students accessing student accommodation are teenagers, that's happening.

There's a poster on here who is a university accommodation allocations officer who has to place people by box-ticked "gender". If a girl objects to being placed with a trans identified male (who identifies as female in the box), that girl has to apply and go to the bottom of the waiting list for a new room.

Forcing a 17/18 year old girl to share a room with a person with a penis, and risk be called out as transphobic, named, shamed and punished by losing out on accommodation is, in my opinion abuse.

Ereshkigal · 31/01/2018 00:47

Absolutely. I've recounted on other threads in response to that poster (who is in an awful position) how when I went into university halls at 19 I had just emerged from a violently controlling abusive relationship. I found it hard to relate to anyone, most of all men. I would have had to drop out if I had been forced to share with a male. It would have broken me. It angers me that people have so little regard for women's feelings, personal vulnerability and privacy.

Ereshkigal · 31/01/2018 00:49

Forcing a 17/18 year old girl to share a room with a person with a penis, and risk be called out as transphobic, named, shamed and punished by losing out on accommodation is, in my opinion abuse.

I believe under 18 it would go against every safeguarding rule in the book.

thebewilderness · 31/01/2018 03:33

Men have been arguing for years over what a woman is and what a woman is for. The only thing they ever seem to agree on is that we were provided for them to use in some fashion.

ShotsFired · 31/01/2018 07:07

@HairyBallTheorem My DS plays under 11s rugby. At that age it's full contact, but still mixed...Imagine those girls 10 years from now, confronted with a man in the front row of the opposing team's scrum. Do they risk spinal injury, or do they give up on rugby?

@RatRolyPoly It's unlikely, given the league structures within organised sport, that they'd come up against an individual whose strengths or abilities were so vastly different to their own.

I was, in effect, one of those girls playing full contact women's rugby for several years (as an adult woman). I am by no means a delicate little winger, I was right in the middle of the pack, facing down some pretty hefty opponents. Some of them I would not dare fuck with if you paid me.

And of course I spent a lot of time with the equivalent men's team. Even despite the above, I can tell you for a fact you that I never saw a male oppo that was smaller, lighter or weaker. I run to about 5'8" in studs. The men sharing my shirt number were all around 6' and upwards, several stone heavier and several years more playing experience (thank you girls school...not). They did also of course received the better practice facilities, changing rooms and whatnot, but that's hardly unusual Hmm

NaturalWoman · 31/01/2018 07:14

I believe under 18 it would go against every safeguarding rule in the book.

This is where the debate being shut down is so dangerous. I don't know what decision would be made, regarding a request like this, on the basis of safeguarding either currently or in the future. However, if it is not talked about, then there will be no way for organisations to manage the situation, because it won't have been legislated for.

So they will take the path of least resistance (e.g. following the law/current trend/whatever it is at the time) so as not to draw too much negative attntion to themselves and to make life easy.

Current thinking says it's a no brainer; of course the boy with the penis should be accommodated with other boys with penises and the girls with vaginas should be accommodated with those with vaginas.

But it we make the move to categorising on the basis of gender and that is down to the feels, then it doesn't really matter whether someone has a penis or a vagina; that would be irrelevant.

If the boys' right to be recognised, accommodated, respected as a woman trumps the girls' right to be protected from errant penises, then the girl won't matter. At the moment, we segregate on the basis of sex to avoid sexual activity between curious teens; pregnancy; rape; sexual assa;ult... If those aspects of being a woman are eradicated as risks because of the way 'woman' comes to be defined (e.g. about feelings, clothes , hair and make up and not biology) and we are no longer permitted to use those reasons, then there will be nothing to safeguard girls against.

NaturalWoman · 31/01/2018 07:17

Sorry, currently I don't believe it would be permitted, but I think that there will be some organisations facing the dilemma for the first time and, until now, have considered the 'trans issue' to be no more than "should boys be permitted to wear dresses to the Year 11 prom?' and may be tying themselves up in knots about it.

If the overnight accommodation is optional - e.g. school trips to Spain etc, then they might just cease to happen.

ShotsFired · 31/01/2018 07:17

@UpABitLate I would feel safer to have things like toilets completely mixed than have them men's and women's and anyone who wants can come into the women's. That feels like asking for trouble.

Soooo, taking this to its logical conclusion....
Women will use the female loos.
Aggressive TRAs will also use the female loos.
Predatory men will also use the female loos.
Leaving safe men in the male loos.

I think I'll start using the male loos.

But then:
Aggressive TRAs will want to also use the male loos.
And then the predatory men will also want to come back to the male loos.
So then there'll be a massive queue for the male loo, while the female one stands empty?

Continue ad infinitum.
God this sounds exhausting. Can we at least agree a rota?

If only there was a simple answer to all this... Hmm

Original poster
Fairenuff · 31/01/2018 07:47

Toilets in clubs and pubs are often a safe haven for women. If they can't nip off to the loo to call a taxi or a friend to get out of a dangerous situation then they are even more vulnerable. Especially in places where people are drinking.

There is even a campaign called Ask for Angela to try and help women who feel unsafe in clubs and bars. Things like this would not happen if they weren't needed.

OP posts:
NaturalWoman · 31/01/2018 07:49

If only there was a simple answer to all this... Hmm

What, you mean like - if you have a male body you use the men's toilets and if you have female body then you use the women's toilets.

It's nothing to do with how you 'feel' it's to do with the set up and services meeting your needs as a adult human male/female.

It seems to me that the biggest concern in all of this is men's feelings and men's violence. I.E. validating the feelings of some men and mitigating against the violent behaviour of others.

This really is something the men need to sort out on their own and leave women out of it all together.

Ereshkigal · 31/01/2018 08:10

If the overnight accommodation is optional - e.g. school trips to Spain etc, then they might just cease to happen.

YY. I think that's probably what will start to happen. Or they'll have to be all single rooms which will mean only rich children will be able to go.