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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

306 replies

Fairenuff · 28/01/2018 12:08

I know it's probably been done to death but it used to be so simple.

There were men and women. All kinds of different people but two sexes.

But now no-one can define what a woman is.

We know it's not clothes, hair or make-up
We're being told it's not having a vagina, periods or child bearing
It's nothing to do with the male/female brain

So what is it? Is it purely down to chromosones?

And if it is, how can people without female chromosones still say that they are a woman?

Confused
OP posts:
Fairenuff · 28/01/2018 14:10

Are transwomen already allowed to compete in women's sports or is that another rumour I've heard?

OP posts:
Elsie2791 · 28/01/2018 14:12

Or do we? What's the current legal/moral obligation? Is there one? Does anyone know?

The current legal obligation can be found in the equality act/gender recognition act.

Only people with a Gender recognition certificate are recognised as having changed their legal gender. This can't be done under the age of 18.

A proposed consultation on changing this to a system of self identification has been delayed.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/justine-greening-delays-divisive-plan-for-easy-gender-swaps-gm77qd9gn

Since Greening has now left the cabinet, there is every possibility it will just be quietly shelved.

Fairenuff · 28/01/2018 14:36

Thank you Elise. I clearly need to do a lot more reading about this.

OP posts:
Maryz · 28/01/2018 15:54

In relation to sport this is interesting

They always mention Caster Semenyu, which pisses me off. There is a difference between an athlete who has always been considered to be female, but has varied hormone labels because of an intersex condition and an athlete who was a boy man for 20/30 years and now is allowed to compete against women.

Basically men who "feel" they are women are using the relaxation of rules for intesex women to their advantage. There are very few intersex athletes, but this ruling opens up the whole of women's sport to exploitation by much greater numbers of mtf transpeople.

incorruptibledream · 28/01/2018 16:15

I suppose it depends if you believe that Sex is independent to chromosomes. That it is inherent to your being in the way you can argue sexuality is. If that is true then your sex is different to gender and other nurturing influences and simply discovered when a discrepancy between this and your genitals arises.

Melamin · 28/01/2018 16:20

I find that when you read about transwomen/ trans women that there is no definition of what it means - whether it is someone who has had surgery and takes hormones, or someone who 'feels like a woman'.

That is confusing enough and I am sure there is intention that it should be.

However, when I first started reading about this, I thought a trans woman was a woman who dressed like a man etc (although I had no idea anyone took testosterone). Therefore, the 'transwomen are women' mantra made perfect sense to me, because however they presented, they are still women, and I thought that their needs were not being met.

Am I just daft? Confused

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 28/01/2018 16:26

Are transwomen already allowed to compete in women's sports or is that another rumour I've heard?

@Fairenuff

Yes.

Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?
Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?
NaturalWoman · 28/01/2018 18:03

I will never say that a trans identifying male is a woman.

TIMs are a subset of men not women.

They portray cabaret cariacatures of women.

They conforn to the narrowest stereotypes of 'femininity'; ones which many actual women reject.

They play at being what they think women are.

The trans agenda is not about supporting people with gender dysphoria; the TRAs use derogatory language to describe them.

This is about men who hate women bringing us down a peg or two by attempting to dismantle the societal support systems put in place to, largely, protect us from men who hate women.

But, for some reason, EVERYONE who has the power, who is in a position, to stand up and say this, isn't.

Probably because they are also fearful of the aggressive men who are promoting this and are happy to throw women under the bus to protect themselves.

Or something like that.

BetsyM00 · 28/01/2018 20:34

Woman: adult human female
or
Woman: what everyone aspires to!

zzzzz · 28/01/2018 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Patodp · 28/01/2018 23:19

Everyone knows what a woman is because every single human being on this planet came out of one.
Changing the definition to erase this fact is beyond offensive and should be criminal.

InionEile · 29/01/2018 05:18

Interesting that everyone is still fairly clear on what it means to be a man... seems like it's just us women who have to give up our identity to accommodate others. What a surprise!

Nakedavenger74 · 29/01/2018 05:28

Why are these men 'defining' as women (which is basically a bloke looking like what he thinks a woman looks like) not considered cultural appropriation?

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/01/2018 07:45

No idea Naked. I can only conclude it's because the majority of men demanding this are white and we give white men what they like.

Nakedavenger74 · 29/01/2018 08:35

Wearing a headdress
Wearing braids
Having Sanskrit tattoos

All cultural appropriation
But wearing a dress and calling yourself a woman. No problems

Datun · 29/01/2018 09:29

@Fairenuff

The dictionary definition of the word woman hasn't changed. It's a legal definition. Except, as far as I know, it's there is no actual definition. Just that you can be legally called a woman, without defining how that actually works in terms of actual definition.

It's not illegal to stay transwomen are men.

Transactivists are manipulating the law to put pressure on people.

The equalities act says you cannot be discriminated against on the basis of 'gender reassignment'.

Gender reassignment is defined as, and I'm paraphrasing here, either transitioning to, or 'in the process of' transitioning to the opposite sex. So it's incredibly woolly, because you can just say it out loud but not actually do anything. As that could be considered being 'in the process of'.

So it means it's a protected characteristic and you can't be discriminated against on that basis.

It doesn't mean that discrimination is defined as not calling them a woman.

If someone has a gender recognition certificate, for which you need to be over 18, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and have 'lived' as the opposite sex for two years, you are legally considered a woman.

Approx 1% of people who identify as transgender have a certificate.

It means, to all intents and purposes they can say they are women. But even so, there are still exemptions in place.

Culturally, it's a different matter.

This whole issue is racing ahead at a rate of knots, and terms are not been defined. They are just being used.

So stating a transwoman is a man will get you accused of transphobia.

But unless you are discriminating under the equality law it doesn't matter what they call you. It's not transphobia.

Transphobia gets defined as negative attitudes or prejudice.

Prejudice is defined as a preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience. So clearly biology, is absolutely not prejudiced. Neither is there any judgement to it that could be construed as negative.

But transactivists have done a marvellous marketing job of making people scared to say what they absolutely can say.

In terms of sport, men are competing as women.

Lauren Halpern in Australia, Lauren Jeska, fell runner, in this country. Who stabbed an official in the neck because he said he needed to provide an analysis of his testosterone levels.

The Australian rugby/football player, whose name escapes me. Andrea Yearwood who has taken state titles in America, despite having no treatment whatsoever.

Gabrielle Ludwig basketball player.

In Iran, where homosexuality is illegal, so they have many more transwomen, half the women's football team are men.

Fallon Fox, boxer who broke the orbital bone of his female opponent.

The transwomen cyclists who came first, second and fourth in the women's event.

And many, anecdotal stories at county level and school level, right here on mumsnet. Citing children and adolescents, who can't possibly legally be the opposite sex.

The criteria is they have to have a lower testosterone level. I'm not a scientist, but it's under 10 something, where women only ever achieve four something (sorry, I don't know what the measurement actually is).

Which doesn't take into account any other physiology.

As a litmus test, ask yourself how many transman are beating men in sport? And, show me one man on the planet who gives a fuck whether a transman wants to compete with them.

Here is a link to some of the sports issues.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Sport+&submit=Search

Here is incredibly useful link set out by women laying out the equality law is and how exemptions can be invoked to protect women's rights.

lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/FPFW_UK_Equality_Act_2010_guide.pdf?token=AWy5vcUiNcAUc743GM5TtmqAaVbsXCIO7jRPo9sEBghth0ZmTWsZp9p11lEbt4DrmRrd1ciUrH9-WCG10Iq-475B0SBD79O5LZ_9FEOHVei98rQEaRz-9-5tbw6jls4l_VdOL_kLlp4cstwPlnxP_ZoCICVLC4XooCrvrdZHFet217jNQfIXu15zHRwJVF0DJ41a-onsu3f4Hx9PZnvhk9v2qB9m5gLEVdZZSMTasOEoFA

Rumbledore · 29/01/2018 10:10

In Iran, where homosexuality is illegal, so they have many more transwomen, half the women's football team are men.

Interesting. Is it possible that some men are identifying as women because they consider it more acceptable than being gay?

First post on this board but lurked for a while.

Datun · 29/01/2018 10:12

Rumbledore

Being gay is punishable by death. So yes, I should say that's a pretty safe assumption!

Rumbledore · 29/01/2018 10:34

I was thinking perhaps wider than that. A Christian who doesn’t believe in gay sex. Racial and cultural intolerances. Etc.

Datun · 29/01/2018 10:36

I'm sure it does. Internalised homophobia must play a part.

Right down to the assumption that because a boy likes playing with girls toys, he must be a girl. Can't possibly be a boy exhibiting feminine traits, because that's like so gay.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 13:27

Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

The definition of "marriage" went through a similarly confusing time, if I remember rightly. It used to mean a union between a man and a woman.

But, you know, definitions have to change sometimes, particularly when we realise they're insufficient.They're not immutable.

ShotsFired · 29/01/2018 13:42

From the comments from the trans people on here recently, it seems less about what they felt like, and more about what they DIDN'T feel like.

i.e. they were unhappy with their born bodies first and foremost. The desire or need to have the other body (of the two physical options available) was their only other choice.

I don't wish to put words in their mouths, but maybe if there had been a third, fourth, fifth... bodily option available, they would have actively 'known' that that was the one which was 100% right immediately and not just the other body to one they came out of the womb with.

Am I making any sense?

PositivelyPERF · 29/01/2018 13:47

It’s actually frightening how this is affecting real women. My 15yr old niece identifies as a boy and when I asked my oldest boy if he thought she was a boy, he answered that ‘that’s how ‘she’ identifies’. He refused to give a straight answer. She still goes on the family ‘girls’ outings’, while her brothers stay at home. 😒

When I asked him to ensure that his little sister (22yrs old with SN) is only dealt with by a born female, regarding intimate medical examinations/care, if anything ever happened to me, he said that trans women aren’t perverts. I explained that the level of violence and sexual assaults amongst them was the same as the level amongst men who didn’t identify as women. I explained that NAMALT, but I wasn’t willing to risk her safety as she doesn’t have a voice. I was accused of being a bigot and even when I asked if he was willing to risk his little sister’s safety to prove a point, he rolled his eyes and walked away in a mood. How fucking terrifying is that? It absolutely breaks my heart that his loyalty lies so much with men that he will risk his sister. 😢

He follows the old trans women are women, deflecting when asked if trans men are men. It just goes to show how fucking invasive this shit is, even when it comes to the safety of the must vulnerable women in society. If anyone EVER spouts off to me about the ‘poor vulnerable’ Tim’s, I swear I will fucking lose it with them.

BahHumbygge · 29/01/2018 13:48

Biology isn't immutable though, nor are the political consequences of being born in the impregnatable and gestating class of humans. Whatever we call them, we still need a common word for that cohort.

Why is having a common word for the subjective and ethereal cohort of people who identify with feminine stereotypes and feelz more important than having a common word for people who objectively and materially have cunts and ovaries (or had them, or at least have the stem cells for them)?

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 13:52

Whatever we call them, we still need a common word for that cohort.

...female?