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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.
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iwantmycommunityback · 22/01/2018 19:09

Thank-you for all your responses.

How can we help? Other than keep on keeping on.

I'm not sure what can be done apart from continuing to challenge the transactivist agenda. I just want people to know that transactivism is not a pro-LGBT thing. It is massively damaging particularly to lesbians and the "LGBT community" is not all in favour of these changes.

For example, I went to a support group for bi/lesbian women and found that it was 80% trans women and non binary men. Which is OK as far as it goes I suppose. But I was expecting a safe space where I could connect with other women and this wasn’t it. I didn’t go back.

I think you can still find some groups which are at least mainly women, if you search but they won't be 'official groups',. IME, the lesbian groups run by actual LGBT organisations are dominated by trans-identified men (TIMs) but I go to some Meetup groups where it is mainly women and sometimes there are only women there - It obviously can't actually be advertised as bio women only and there will sometimes be men there and no one could object but, for whatever reason, there are some groups which aren't dominated by TIMs.

It's frustrating that they have taken over the main, official groups for a number of reasons - Those are often the groups that the most vulnerable just-coming-out, don't-know-any-other-lesbians type women first find out about. They are the groups that receive all the funding and they are the groups that get consulted with as representatives of the LGBT community. Also, just the fact that I and others like me have so many years of history with these organisations and these buildings - first coming there as a scared young person, making friends, later volunteering there to help others, helping to paint or make other improvements to the building etc - and now it just isn't ours any more but the same sign (with added 'T') is still on the door and the rest of the world thinks everything's fine.

I came upon the thread below today and there are a lot of suggestions about lesbians trying to arrange to meet up informally which I think is the way to go now - but it does make it even more difficult for women who are newly coming out or newly moved to an area as they don't already have those connections and, like in your experience FayJay, if they go to the 'official' lesbian groups it will mainly be men.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/

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guardianfree · 22/01/2018 19:23

iwantmycommunityback
That reddit thread is so shocking. The palpable fear amongst women of being accused of 'transphobia' for not wanting to centre men as lesbians. Having to creep around secretly and being denied access to all the funded resources / opportunities that are MEANT to support lesbians. Every time I think I have my head around the awfulness of all this, something else pops up that shakes me to the core.

Thank you for posting this and let's keep this thread bumped so that the reality of what is happening to young lesbian women remains visible.

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Datun · 22/01/2018 19:24

Bumping.

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LangCleg · 22/01/2018 19:36

As an old, married, straight woman, I honestly don't know what I can do to help, other than be vocal on social media about the othering of lesbians, the cotton ceiling and the general lack of respect shown.

But if there is, shout out. I'll help wherever I can.

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Datun · 22/01/2018 19:37

I do find the erasure of homosexuality makes people pause for thought.

They think this is all part and parcel of gay rights.

It soooo isn't. It's the opposite.

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IamtheOrpheliac · 22/01/2018 19:52

Iwantmycommunityback Meetup is a really good idea, I genuinely hadn't considered looking for groups through that before (although living in a conservative area doesn't get my hopes up). Being a younger generation and a relatively antisocial person, I have really noticed how much online LGBTQ spaces have changed. I remember the website I got a lot of support from coming out, sadly now closed, felt so much more equal and supportive than a lot of the communities out there now. Trans women were welcomed, but their voice wasn't the only voice or the loudest.

I don't like to feel that I'm freezing anyone out and I have known a few lovely trans people, although admittedly mostly trans men. I want to be inclusive to trans women, I just don't understand why their needs have to be centred in every discussion. I don't understand why questioning them or bringing up conflicts of interest or suggesting that maybe they reconsider the way they put some of their points across (the cotton ceiling being an example of this), is considered 'literal violence'. Especially when essentially bullying lesbians into sharing their safe spaces and their beds is not. I guess I'm just asking for the same respect I'm willing to give?

Challenging the trans activist agenda is hard because they are often unwilling to engage. #nodebate gets thrown around as do statistics of how many trans women are murdered and victims of violence. I find it quite hard to present a reasoned argument in such a way that I can't be immediately ignored and branded a 'TERF'.

It would be helpful if there were an easily accessible list of resources for young lesbians. To reassure butch lesbians that being butch doesn't automatically make them trans. To reassure all lesbians that just like every other person on the planet, their right to consent is absolute, their body is their body and they can refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason and doing so doesn't make them a bigot.

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PositivelyPERF · 22/01/2018 19:53

You know what I find just as tragic? I have a lesbian couple as clients and one is very open about her concerns for young women and has golds me that universities are becoming so unsafe for young women. ON the other hand her wife has accused me of being a bigot and told me I was wrong when I mentioned young lesbians being bullied. They’re both in their 50s, have been together for years and they don’t discuss this because of the disagreements it causes between them. They are a lovely couple, but this is the male elephant in the room. The TRAs have done such a good job when even some lesbians are falling for their bullshite.

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PositivelyPERF · 22/01/2018 19:53
  • golds = told
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Datun · 22/01/2018 19:54

Add to this. I would love to see it go viral.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146926-I-am-this-woman

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SophoclesTheFox · 22/01/2018 19:58

What a sobering read, Iwant.

Surely, surely we must be near the bottom of this madness now, and things will start to turn around?

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irretating · 22/01/2018 20:07

That reddit thread Sad I want to help but as I'm not part of that demographic I don't know what I could do.

There's complete radio-silence on any voice that doesn't chime in with ''transwomen are women and they are the most persecuted people in the world ever'' rinse and repeat ad infinitum. The voices of lesbians, the voices of the trans widows, the voices of the de-transitioners, they are drowned out, they are disbelieved.

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iwantmycommunityback · 22/01/2018 22:08

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/

I've just seen the comment on there from the masculine-presenting woman who was constantly asked in her LGBT group when she was going to come out as trans to the extent that she began questioning her own gender identity and did identify as trans for a while. I thought that younger generations of lesbian and gay people would grow up in more enlightened times than I did but I'm really glad that I'm not growing up now Sad

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Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/01/2018 22:36

Iwant thank you for writing this (so very eloquently)

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LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 22/01/2018 22:46


I posted this on another thread and thought it might be good here as well...
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iwantmycommunityback · 23/01/2018 08:52

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle Brave women speaking up about this, especially at a Women's March - which should be where we can address these issues. Sad

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AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 09:31

The cotton ceiling was my peak trans. Not that there haven't been plenty of other peaks since, but the idea that lesbians don't have a right to say no to cock? No, off you fuck, not having that.

I'm bi, not lesbian, and very angry that the destruction of the lesbian community is being spearheaded by other bisexual women who like cosplaying as lesbians for whatever idiotic reason. There's always been an issue with bisexual women trying to bring their male partners into lesbian spaces, but it used to be generally understood that this was rude and inconsiderate and if you really couldn't bear to be apart from your bepenised partner for a few hours then you could just fuck off somewhere else. I was not happy to see that that had changed, and have been pushing back against it as hard as I can. As far as I'm concerned even bi women are basically provisional guests in spaces meant for lesbian women and should leave if lesbians don't want us there. Trying to inflict your boyfriend on the space is way out of line.

I worry for the young lesbians coming up in that environment, because almost all of the ones I've known well enough that they feel comfortable talking about personal stuff have said that they've been coerced or assaulted by trans women pushing the "you're a bigot if you don't accept the ladystick" line. Brings out the mama bear in me like nothing else.

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HairyBallTheorem · 23/01/2018 09:43

I'm a straight woman, and the cotton ceiling was my peakiest of all peak trans moments.

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 23/01/2018 09:48

I couldn't believe my eyes when I first came across the idea of 'breaking through the cotton ceiling' and saw it being taken seriously as a legitimate aim. It's an unvarnished rape image. How are people coming out with this stuff and not being prosecuted for threatening behaviour and homophobic hate speech?

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AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 09:50

They later tried to revisionist history it as "no, we meant OUR underwear" but a. the original comments by Drew Devaux that started the whole thing are still publicly available and people can read them and b. trying to coerce unwilling people into your underpants isn't OK either.

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moofolk · 23/01/2018 09:56

OP I've heard similar things from older lesbians who feel pushed out of the community. One talked about identifying as 'Lesbian Plus', a super lesbian, as a pushback against the ever growing acronym. (LGBTQIA+).

But this is a really well written piece, you should post it elsewhere too. Thanks

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AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2018 10:01

If there's any online space that really needs to hear this it's Tumblr, where the brainwashing of young lesbians is at its worse (except maybe in universities).

Not too long ago I saw a bunch of adult trans women go after a 15 year old girl for very tentatively saying that she didn't like the idea of sex with a penis. Nothing like seeing a bunch of grown men sexually harass a child and try to browbeat her into agreeing to sex that she's already said she doesn't want under the guise of "activism" to really clarify what's going on.

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/01/2018 10:01

4) The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men)

Why is this? I first started to notice it in the late 80s and early 90s when lesbian women pulled out all stops to support gay men in the AIDS era. My feeling then was that these women often did give a shiny shite about men and pleasing them because they did rather become their surrogate mothers, cleaners, cooks, nurses, hand-holders and advocates - putting lesbian and feminist issues on the backburner as they did. I rarely saw any acknowledgement from gay men though. In fact, I often saw outright hatred for all women. Oddly, I also saw lesbian women try to 'appropriate AIDS' as if it were their problem - hence the dental dam (often with lace sewn on) for sex that was of such low risk to be negligible. I've often wondered if gay men are somehow jealous of straight men because they get to appropriate women's labour and gay men don't. I've also long suspected that they are suspicious of lesbians because they know damn well that they benefit from the patriarchy and they don't want pesky feminists messing this up. I also suspect that they don't like feminists pissing in their pool re laws regarding pornography and the like. Anyone else got other ideas?

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Pootlebug · 23/01/2018 11:24

Like others on this thread I'm a straight woman in my early 40s. I would like to help but unsure what I can do apart from talk to people about the reasons why I believe that trans identifying males are not women, and the reasons it is harmful to many different women in many different situations to identify them as such.

If there is anything else I can and should be doing, please shout!

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Datun · 23/01/2018 11:32

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle

I watched that rad fem link, then forgot to come out of YouTube.

And so started listening, inadvertently, to a man saying of course a neovagina is a real vagina, you have sex with it, what else is it for?

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Momo18 · 23/01/2018 12:12

Wow this is really shocking, I mean I know this trans business has got out of hand but I never even considered how it may impact lesbians.

It's absolute madness, women should not have to accept a trans woman as a lesbian and certainly shouldn't be bullied into it out of fear of been prejudice. Tbh I don't really have many words, I'm shocked. How on earth can a man wear eyeliner and say he is a woman. Are trans men doing this to gay men also?

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