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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.

OP posts:
JuzzaL · 23/05/2018 03:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

daimbars · 23/05/2018 08:38

JuzzaL the thing I've noticed most is the abandonment of labels. 10 years ago there was more of an obsession with defining your sexual identity. Now people are simply themselves or quite often 'queer' which covers the whole spectrum.

All the LGBT groups I work with are very respectful and supportive towards each other.

To answer your question nope I don't know of any trans women who specifically identify as lesbian (or none that openly shout about it). I did meet one about five years ago but don't know her any more - she said it was hard coming out twice, first as trans then as gay. She seemed nice. I didn't get to know her well but I can't imagine her telling lesbians they were transphobic for not fancying her.

Really feel I am missing something here? It seems there is a phenomenon happening online that isn't reflected in the real world?

MipMipMip · 26/06/2018 23:31

This is really sad. Felt it deserved a bump.Flowers yo all affected

mancheeze · 27/06/2018 05:27

I was alerted to what was happening to lesbians about 5 yrs ago. Having had relationships with women it really fucking got me angry. We had this great lesbian bar here in Vancouver for a year. A MEASLY year.

There isn't a single woman only bar here now.

Anyway, I'm a radical feminist who can't stand men and don't give a fuck about their feelings or their bullshit entitlement. I will fight for females.

Last night I was on Twitter, before transactivists reported three of my tweets and put me in twitter jail with no obvious way out, and I was having a convo with two women (what I assumed were women).

Just mentioning female liberation to them made them show me just how much they hate themselves and other women. It was a real downer to see BOTH women get more angry at a woman like me who has no time for men's bullshit than they were at the men oppressing them.

One admitted she gets paid less than men and is well aware of it yet accused me of wanting a female supremacist society because I told her second wave feminism was about liberation, not equality. The other woman was standing up for male feelings and implying I was a potentially abusive parent for understanding that people don't change sex.

It was a jaw dropping shit show.

It also made me feel that I'm really lucky to have other women on social media that are at the same level of understanding that I am and to take some comfort in that.

anonymouseagain · 29/06/2018 20:41

AAK, that's my view completely. As a bi woman, I don't have a right to lesbian spaces and certainly don't have a right to take a man to one. And the complicity of bi women in undermining lesbian boundaries is shocking. I said it in the pub after WPUK Newcastle and I'll say it again:

Bi women know from personal experience just how different sex with a man is from sex with a woman: women's skin and lips are softer, they taste different (not just genitally, when kissing as well), they smell different. An ounce of empathy would inform a bi woman that it's not a "vagina fetish" to exclusively desire women, it's desire for a woman's whole body and rejection of men's whole bodies.

Bisexual transmaidens should be ashamed to co-sign on the corrective rape and sexual coercion of lesbians.

enoughisenough12 · 29/06/2018 20:49

I'm glad this thread has been bumped again. It's such an important one - but quite sad.

pachyderm · 30/06/2018 01:45

I'm so sorry about what is being done to your community, and how you're being disrespected and undermined on all sides. Look at the Grand Marshal of tomorrow's Pride parade in Dublin. A straight man. Oh, wait, a "lesbian"Angry

Transactivism and the lesbian community
thebewilderness · 30/06/2018 04:54

daimbars

Did you somehow manage to miss the assault on a woman at speakers corner, the harassment of Lesbians by LGBT organizations the deplatforming at unis I could go on and on. The bomb threat? The studenst dressing in black bloc garb tho intimidate women.

Missed all of that, eh? Ignorance is a choice in the information age.

Materialist · 30/06/2018 06:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Stopthisnow · 30/06/2018 14:37

It disgusts me that heterosexual men, who call themselves ‘lesbian women’, are now being celebrated, as some kind of new progressive thing. I am with Mancheese when she says ‘I'm a radical feminist who can't stand men and don't give a fuck about their feelings or their bullshit entitlement. I will fight for females.’ If we all took this view then these men would never have gotten as far as they have.

I think far too many people want to placate these men, are worried about being seen as ‘phobic’, and worried about what others will think of them. It is not helpful in my opinion, the more of us that call this entitled behaviour from males out for what it is the better. As a lesbian I condemn these men as rapey pervy men who fetishise lesbians (the same way as I have always condemned rapey pervy men that fetishise lesbians), what makes it far worse is when actual women humour these men, by referring to them as if they actually are women and lesbian women at that.

I remember many years ago when these men said they weren’t bothered about lesbians opposing them, or the small group of radical feminists around at the time, as both lesbians and radical feminists are a small number of people and without any power. However, they said they were bothered if heterosexual women stated to oppose them, as they realised that women as a group outnumber them and could put a halt to their crap. This is why they are going after sites like this in my opinion, they are frightened that if more women become aware of what they are about, and oppose them, they won’t be able to get away with it any longer. What pisses me off even more is the way this site is enabling these men, by shutting down and banning lesbians who speak out about this.

BettyDuMonde · 30/06/2018 14:50

This is such a brilliant OP and I am glad it’s been bumped.

I am just about old enough to have never really given any thought to what ‘Q’ is.

LurkingBee · 30/06/2018 15:19

I'm listening to this. This is a really important thread.

I'm struggling with what "used to be", and things I supported, and what is happening now, which angers me.

I'm worried for young lesbians particularly. I can't be the only one looking at the Lurkers thread.

Please keep discussing it so I can learn.

Juells · 30/06/2018 15:24

@Datun
If it's any consolation, it's got me absolutely infuriated and I talk about it a lot!

Me too, only I rant.

zzzzz · 30/06/2018 15:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floorplan · 30/06/2018 18:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iseveryusernamealreadytaken · 30/06/2018 18:14

@Floorplan - Did you see it on Fair Play for Women? It says in the thread that they asked if they could reproduce it on their site.

Floorplan · 30/06/2018 18:17

That could be it will remove my post with apologies to OP.

DJLippy · 02/07/2018 13:18

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294770-Lets-call-Radio-4-and-tell-them-what-its-like-to-be-gender-critical-LGBT-person

What's it like to be LGBT in the UK today? That's the question on tomorrows You & Yours phone in - a Radio 4 consumer affairs show (12.15 - 13.00)

Do you think we can get them to mention the cotton ceiling?

I think this is a warm up to the GRA consultation being launched this week. Basically, I think it will be the TRA show - a chance for the BBC to do some more GRA propaganda. I think that gender critical lesbian, gay and bi-sexual voices should get an airing.

They want submissions for tomorrows show. This is a brilliant programme - and they have some of the best producers working in the British media right now. Let's write in and tell them what we think.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9/contact

Iseveryusernamealreadytaken · 07/07/2018 11:01

Something's just struck me...

Going back to when I was using on-line lesbian dating sites, there was a massive issue with straight men posing as lesbians on them. I remember it being something that a lot of us encountered and was a regular topic of discussion when at lesbian social gatherings with women sharing their experiences and warning others to be careful and what signs to look out for.

I remember one friend who had been messaging and texting with a 'lesbian' for quite some time which had got a bit sexual in tone but this 'lesbian' never seemed to want to meet up or speak on the phone but just kept getting more explicitly sexual by text message. In the end my friend got suspicious and stopped responding. She kept getting bombarded with texts from this 'lesbian' begging her to respond but ignored them. After a few weeks of this, a call came from this 'lesbian's' phone. A man's voice on the other end said 'this is my cousin's phone . She really likes you and is very upset that you have stopped texting her. Please can you reply to her.'

While there were risks with meeting up with someone in real life who might turn out to be a man, I think the majority were like this guy who realised that this had to be an on-line only thing and things wouldn't work out as they wanted if they met up in real life.

The thing that has just struck me is that I haven't heard a single story like this in years. Although I'm not online dating any more, I've got friends who are and at lesbian get-togethers, the perils and woes of people's online dating experiences has been a topic of conversation. But never, ever anything about men posing as lesbians.

Now, I'd like to think that all these straight guys have seen the error of their ways and have decided to stopped deceiving and pestering lesbians.

Unfortunately, I think that what has happened is that they have become more confident that they can claim they are trans lesbians and don't even have to conceal their maleness any more and lesbians no longer feel able to talk about their experiences of unwanted attention from men because they can't name them as men - and even if they refer to them as 'transwomen' it would 'transphobic' to suggest that they aren't interested in dating males who identify as lesbians. Sad

Stopthisnow · 07/07/2018 13:04

I agree Iseveryusernamealreadytaken In my experience most lesbians are naturally suspicious of people claiming to be lesbians online, because we know that many men pose as lesbian women. I remember years back in the early 2000’s when I had just got the internet, no end of straight men were posing as lesbians going on lesbian forums, dating apps etc. They were usually very easy to spot, these men often watched a lot of porn, and think lesbians are like what they had watched, their whole manner screams male. I think most of those men didn’t call themselves ‘trans’ at that time, as it was not a widespread ideology then. They were likely just men sitting at their PC’s looking for something sexual, and thought going on a lesbian site or app and pretending to be a lesbian would be fun, if they could convince lesbians they were one of us. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that these men still do this, only now they don’t always just claim to be lesbians, they also claim to be a lesbian who supports trans ideology.

So on the one hand we have regular porn sick males (who do not think of themselves as women at all) pretending to be lesbians, so they can get off online by posing as lesbians and talking to lesbians, as they always have done. Then on the other hand we have porn sick men with AGP (who want to be thought of as women) posing as lesbians in order to promote a lesbophobic ideology, so that lesbians cannot speak out about these pervy males. We had just the former before now we have both these problems. No only that, but now we have alphabet soup orgs that actually facilitate and promote these men.

So I think because these men are being shielded by alphabet soup orgs themselves, many lesbians (particularly the young) feel unable to speak out against these men, when previously they would. Although in my experience many lesbians when asked about these men in private, express sentiments that could not be repeated on this site, they just don’t publicly state them, because like you say they would called ‘transphobic’ etc. This ideology has effectively enabled heterosexual males to harass lesbians and be excused and lauded for it.

R0wantrees · 07/07/2018 13:57

Protest by lesbians at Pride London:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299646-Lesbians-protest-at-London-Pride-getthelout?

Ravenesque · 07/07/2018 16:57

I came to this thread from a link in the Lesbians protest at London Prid thread. I'm so glad I did.

I was aware of some of this, but not the extent of it. It makes me really sad and even more angry. I'm going to talk to a friend tonight about her lesbian teenage daughter. I really don't want her getting fucked up by this shit.

Thanks, OP, this is a really important discussion and your opening post is excellent.

Ravenesque · 07/07/2018 19:45

Thank you, R0wantrees!

PersonWithAVulva · 08/07/2018 12:27

Glad this has been bumped, its such an important thread. Especially when you stil get people who have been talking about this subject for ages and ages, yet still claim to have never seen anything negative towards lesbians from transactivists and their ilk. There is a lot of proof now of their behaviour, but still some stick their heads in the sand and make ot everythings rosy.