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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transactivism and the lesbian community

187 replies

iwantmycommunityback · 21/01/2018 18:05

I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few days in particular about transactivism and lesbians and thought I might try to put some of it into writing, partly to try to make sense of it and partly because I keep still seeing people refer to the ‘LGBT’ or ‘LGBTQ’ community and equating transactivism with lesbian and gay rights.

I think the most obvious impact of transactivism is on young lesbians being encouraged to identify as heterosexual transmen and to subject themselves to damaging medical treatment, the effects of which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I think Janice Turner’s article in the Times already covers that issue very well: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

One of the problems for young lesbians (in addition to the rise in lesbophobia particularly among the young) is that, when they reach out to ‘their’ community, eg join an LGBT group for support, what they get isn’t their community at all but something very hostile.

Gender critical feminists will be familiar with the idea of trans-identified males co-opting women’s identities, women’s rights, women’s spaces etc for their own ends but there are other forms of appropriation going on, particularly in the (former) LGBT ‘community’ (including transsexuals themselves having been co-opted by people who don’t have body dysphoria and who marginalise them as ‘truscum’) . For lesbians, in addition to the appropriation of womanhood, I think the two main additional identity appropriations that cause problems are:

Transbians

These are heterosexual biological males who identify as women and, therefore, as lesbians and have hijacked our community (support groups, social groups, bars, forums, you name it) and believe that lesbians should be open to having sex with someone with a penis if they ‘identify’ as a woman (see ‘the cotton ceiling’). This group has widened further e.g. including ‘transfeminine men’ and men who identify as a woman part-time (so get to walk through life as a heterosexual man but just ‘identify’ as a lesbian for a few hours to access a lesbian group or lesbian club night where they are of course the most oppressed person ever and must be centred at all times).

As well as being included in our groups, they are held up as examples to us eg for International Women’s Day one group had a talk from an ‘inspirational woman’ who was a biological male, who hadn’t had any surgery, was dressed as a bloke (not that that should make any difference..), had a bit of stubble going on and identified as non-binary (pronouns something like ‘zie’) not as a woman. Like, not only could they not find an actual woman who was inspirational enough to fill that spot, they couldn’t even find a man who was prepared to say they were a woman. Stuff like this is being funded by charity grants intended for women and for lesbian and gay people.

‘Queer’ straight trans allies

This is pretty much a consequence of the above. For those who don’t know, queer is now used as an all-encompassing term for anyone who doesn’t identify as a heterosexual “cis” person. However, it is also preferred by certain people over terms like lesbian, gay and bisexual because it does away with what are considered the rigid boundaries of ‘gender’ and sexuality e.g. lesbian and gay meaning being attracted to the same sex, bisexual as being attracted to ‘both’ sexes, when certain people reject these categories and the idea that there are two sexes.

Take, for example, Lily Madigan who is a biological male who has now come out as a lesbian and is dating a woman. Let’s presume for a moment that this woman (let’s call her Chloe) is a) a biological female b) and a passionate trans uber-ally. Chloe is a bio female who is dating a bio male with a penis who wears a pink hoodie and identifies as a woman. Say, before that, Chloe was dating a bio male with a penis who wears a blue hoodie and is, therefore, a man. Maybe in her next relationship, she will date a bio male with a penis who has purple hair and identifies as ‘genderqueer’. Therefore, Chloe can say that she dates men, women and genderqueer people, including both cisgender and trans people. Therefore, she is a queer or pansexual woman.

Along with the transbians, these ‘queer’ woman become involved in what was formerly the lesbian and bisexual women’s community. However, these trans uber-allies have a lot of views that are contrary to the interests particularly of lesbians. They believe that lesbians have ‘cis’ privilege and also that lesbians (along with gay men) are the most privileged people in the LGBT community. They believe that lesbians are narrow-minded and transphobic for only wanting to date other biological women and oppress transwomen who can’t break through the ‘cotton ceiling’ of their underwear.

I’m not even sure when this stuff started because, like most of us, due to the blurring of the meaning of words, I just didn’t see it happening. A lot of the main online websites, blogs and forums for lesbians started to change, with different women running them and, over time, a shift in the tone – lots about trans inclusion and more references to being ‘queer’ and open to relationships with anyone, about how some people (the lesbians) had privilege in our community and should prioritise these other people, less representation of butch women (despite the talk of blurring of gender boundaries/genderfluidity) etc.

It was only years later, someone who knew the women who had been running one of these websites was talking about who they were and who they were in relationships (bio females in relationships with bio males, basically) that the penny finally dropped with me that these were straight women appropriating our identity and lecturing at us and marginalising us in our own community.

This blurring of the language enables them to do it – but even in cases where you can see it for yourself (e.g. if you are looking at what is clearly a straight couple, who you know will be read by everyone they meet as a straight couple, even if the guy is wearing a bit of eyeliner), you couldn’t say anything as you couldn’t suggest that he wasn’t a woman (or genderqueer or whatever).

Why aren’t the LGB community (in particular lesbians) speaking out more?

  1. Firstly, I think it takes a while to see what it going on (for a number of reasons including the blurring of language, the shutting down of any discussion or even thought on the issue e.g. through the repetition of mantras such as transwomen are women, positive experience of/friendships with traditional transsexuals and not understanding how much the trans movement has changed, misrepresentation of this issue in what we consider to be ‘our’ trusted (LGB) news outlets, organisations, websites etc, the conflating of trans issues with gay issues that aren’t really comparable if you actually give them any thought but on the surface seem similar to negative things that have happened to you and feel personal to you resulting in a tendency to just automatically react against and feel angry about any opposition, especially if you are being told that it is ‘anti-LGBT’ and coming from ‘anti-LGBT’ organisations).

  2. Some lesbians aren’t really that involved any more so aren’t aware of what is going on. Many lesbians will have accessed the LGB community, lesbian support groups, lesbian/gay bars when they first came out, when they were looking for a relationship, in times of difficulties etc but are now happily settled in a relationship and don’t feel the need to access those resources. They will still have their lesbian ‘community’ but that will mean texting their friends Sarah & Jo and Claire & Debs and arranging to meet up at their (straight) local pub for the evening. Any involvement with the wider LGBT community will be more minimal like maybe watching the Pride Parade once a year or occasionally reading something on an LGBT website about some awful transphobes who are attacking the LGBT community. They will think back to the transwomen they knew 10 – 15 years ago who were nice people who just wanted to get on with their lives.

  3. Young lesbians identifying as transmen rather than as lesbians and, for the few who do, a lack of access to a real lesbian community which could introduce them to an alternative to the current discourse and give them the opportunity to discuss shared issues, learn from others’ experiences and have other lesbian women on their side. Young lesbians who aren’t accepted or feel isolated in their school, family, community etc will seek out an LGBT youth group and this community they reach out to will heavily endorse the transactivist agenda as part and parcel (and absolutely central) to their identity. Where else do they go and how do they know that there is anything else?

  4. The low status of lesbian women within the LGBT community (I don’t think people outside are really aware of how much misogyny and in particular hatred of lesbians there is from some gay men).

  5. The reason you are probably all aware of – the risks of speaking out, which are increased if you are a lesbian as it is coming from your ‘own’ community and being a lesbian puts you under suspicion of being trans-exclusionary (ie penis-exclusionary) anyway. If you run a lesbian business or events, you can’t risk being anything other than pro the trans agenda or they will destroy your livelihood. And I’m sure most of us have seen the threats and actual violence meted out to those who dare to disagree. There’s also a fear about just broaching the subject with another actual female lesbian because you don’t know how many of you are onside so it’s a risk. From tentatively raising the issue with a select few, I do know lesbian friends who have got concerns about this but we are very cautious and tentative about saying anything to other women because of the risk. The bigger stories like the closure of MichFest ( www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Womyns-Music-Festival-to-End-after-40-Years-447/ ) and the men wielding baseball bats to keep the lesbians in check on Women’s Marches and Pride Parades ( gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/transdykes-the-anti-lesbian-antifa/ ) are just symbols of the way we are being policed and the consequences for what is left of lesbian events, lesbian-run businesses etc, if we don’t keep in line.

  6. Finally, simply, as I’ve explained above, another reason some of ‘us’ don't oppose or seem to actively support transactivism is that not all of ‘us’ are actually ‘us’. As lesbians step away from the LGBT 'community' and more ‘lesbian and queer women’ emerge from the two groups referred to above, an increasing proportion of ‘us’ are actually a subset of heterosexual men and women who loathe lesbians and support the transactivist agenda - but, because of the way language is being twisted, you’d never know that.

OP posts:
Jaxhog · 08/07/2018 12:58

As a hetero married woman, I've also become increasingly concerned about transwomen invading women only spaces. Until I read this Op, and the comments, I had no idea of the impact on lesbians. The idea that a 'male' transwoman is berating a lesbian into have sex with a 'female penis' is totally abhorrent.

Although I have several transwomen friends, the one thing that strikes me most is just how self obsessed they are,. Many (not all) talk endlessly about themselves, how their families 'dont understand them' and their 'rights'. I really hope that 'trans' is a phase that will burn out soon, and we can be free to dress how we like and have sex with you we like.

I don't know how I can help, but I'm willing to try.

Jaxhog · 08/07/2018 12:59

you=who!

Lynnikins · 10/08/2018 12:46

I've had unpleasant experiences in gay venues and elsewhere with what are now being called "transwomen" since 1989. Back then they were just called/categorised as "trannies" (most even referred to themselves as such) and everyone in the gay clubs, in particular, knew they were heterosexual men who got a kick out of cross-dressing and trying to persuade lesbians they were women (and, therefore, lesbians). They would ask any new women who came along (in the company of a gay man or any lesbian who turned up on her own or with a girlfriend) to dance with them and women usually did, initially, assuming that these guys were gay male cross dressers. It didn't take more than one dance to find out they were just as much into sleazy behaviour (quite often, groping) and sexist attitudes as many intoxicated heterosexual men would be in ordinary clubs. The problem was: most of the "trannies" didn't really need any level of intoxication to behave that way. Their sense of male entitlement convinced them that lesbians would be interested in anything that might remotely pass for female (at least in male eyes).

Since that time, the language used to describe the types of male who cross dress and want to be seen as women and have sexual access to women and their spaces has been sanitised and these words often described as "hate speech". Words like "transvestite", "trannie", "autogynephilia" and so on are proscribed, and men with these sexual fetishes must all be lumped under the trans/ transgender / transwoman categories and never criticised for their behaviour towards women - and particularly towards lesbians.

My own experiences of harassment and observations of their behaviour made me outspoken on this issue many years ago. Now there are attempts to silence lesbians but we won't be silenced concerning our own experiences and those of other women.

Sunkisses · 12/08/2018 00:00

bump

UpstartCrow · 15/08/2018 19:41

This is a really shocking account of lesbians being harassed and excluded from the Vancouver Dyke March in the name of ‘inclusivity’;

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/13/lesbians-excluded-vancouver-dyke-march-name-inclusivity/

Ravenesque · 15/08/2018 20:18

That is so awful, I don't know where to begin.

Certainly, a dyke march that blocks out dykes is not a dyke march.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 14/05/2019 00:39

Given the ongoing behaviour towards lesbians who actually are lesbians, and the way them being lesbians is being made out to be something horrifically bigoted and wrong, I feel this post is worth a bump. Especially given the people behaving in such a way towards lesbians, will continually crow about how this never happens, has never happened and how the cotton ceiling is all a big TERF conspiracy, despite regularly publically engaging in lesbophobic behaviour themselves and there being a huge amount of evidence of transactivists abusing lesbians for not wanting dick.

2BthatUnnoticed · 14/05/2019 02:46

Glad you bumped this PP. I’ve been wondering whether we should set up a lesbian support thread, which can stay ongoing.

What I try and stress to my niece is that Homosexuality is perfectly acceptable! Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise! Do not be shamed for your sexuality... and ignore all the awful “lesbian” mags, they are borderline abusive.

ChattyLion · 14/05/2019 08:09

Thanks, OP, this is a really important discussion and your opening post is excellent.

This ^^

DuMondeB · 14/05/2019 09:19

Yes, excellent post. Thank you for bumping it.

I’ve noticed that the language has crept further since the thread has started, especially amongst younger people in the US. It seems the current preferred phrase is ‘Queer and Trans’ (Q&T people, Q&T communities, Q&T events etc) and LGBT is falling out of favour.

Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people are truly in danger of losing the words that describe their experiences, as is already happening to women and transsexuals.

SophoclesTheFox · 14/05/2019 11:44

Excellent post and timely bumping. Am sad that we’ve lost some of the great contributors since it started though 😢

SocFem19 · 14/05/2019 14:40

Thank you, just thank you so much for putting all this out there. It is so so hard being a lesbian in the LGBT community at the moment especially being GC because we have so much to lose - our community - and nobody seems to care about us, our forced silence, the appropriation of both our womanhood and our sexuality. It is so hard when I think about it. We have always been pushed to the outskirts and now I feel that so many young lesbians are scared into silence for fear of losing our whole community and networks if we are seen to be 'terf' and often this is from mostly straight people who have invaded the community and masquerade under 'queer'. God thanks so much for putting this out and I'm sending solidarity to all other lesbians and bisexual women reading this and thanks to all genuine straight allies, too.

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