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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Break it down for me?

979 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 20/04/2022 10:05

This is quite a good discussion on transitioned males in sport done by Australia's SBS TV channel. It includes people like Jane Fleming (Olympic athletics champ), Deborah Acason (Commonwealth games female weighlifting champion and pioneer), Holly Lawford-Smith, Prof David Handelsman (Uni of Sydney) specialist in Testosterone, Dr Roslyn Carbon (part of the team developing UK Sports guidance), Mianne Baggar and Joanne Harper.




Overall, it showed just how much the inclusive side fall onto emotional manipulation in the face of overwhelming evidence that counters their claims.
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greenfly91 · 20/04/2022 10:20

@TortiousTortoise I think it's great that you want to educate yourself on this matter :) I also want to learn more as it certainly is a nuanced subject matter!

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Helleofabore · 01/05/2022 21:12

This contains a very simple explanation about ‘cis’ and why many women are rejecting it.

twitter.com/mscots41/status/1520775984483610625?s=21&t=vB5ADwIKMNe5KDNgdMx6FQ

thanks thisissavvy!

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NecessaryScene · 14/05/2022 07:59

Great new piece by Bernard Lane in Quillette going over the entirety of the childhood treatment issue.

Clearly intended as a comprehensive "Break it down for me" of that topic for the US audience, but useful as a complete review for anyone.

The White House’s Specious Gender Manifesto

The White House is claiming that the debate about childhood gender identity is settled—even as numerous international experts are coming forward to say it‘s not.

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334bu · 22/05/2022 06:31

drdylanwilson.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-australias-doctors/comments?s=r

Heart felt open letter from Australian paediatrician saying why children shouldn't be referred to certain hospitals.

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334bu · 22/05/2022 11:44

Another interesting article, this time from a transwoman psychologist worried by the upsurge in numbers of " trans" kids and lack of research.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10826793/New-poorly-understood-group-gender-questioning-youth-overwhelming-DR-ERICA-ANDERSON.html

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Helleofabore · 31/05/2022 22:55

Sharron Davies ran a twitter poll on 28/5/2022

Should biological males be allowed to compete against biological females in sport?

59,473 votes
97% against only 3% for.

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LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 01/06/2022 09:23

Datun · 20/01/2018 22:38

It might be useful if you just read the posts and try and pick it up as you go along.

It's quite complicated, as you say, with all the acronyms and different strands.

I can help you out broadly.

There are two types of transwomen, according to Blanchards typology.

Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP)

Homosexual transsexuals are generally referred to as 'genuine transwomen'. They are attracted to men, usually have gender dysphoria which is a rejection of their masculinity and their male body, and are often fairly benign, just trying to get on with it under the radar.

They are often called Truscum by autogynephiles.

Autogynephiles (AGP) are different. They are aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman. It's a sexual fetish. And they are usually attracted to women. They are often late transitioners, are often married and have fathered children.

It's this second cohort who tend to be campaigning for access to women's spaces. They are 'male lesbians', the ones with a lady dick, or female penis, the 'transwomen are women', NoDebate. They are the ones who often say lesbians are transphobic for not dating them, and their penis. See cotton ceiling.

The other complication is this second, more aggressive cohort, are attracting just regular misogynistic men who want to dismantle women's boundaries.

TIM stands for trans identifying male. It's a banned term on mumsnet.

At least 85 percent of transwomen keep their male genitalia. They may take hormones to grow breasts and get a more curvy figure, but usually keep their penis (getting breasts, or shaving jawbones, etc, is still called sex reassignment surgery. It often has absolutely nothing to do with a penis). Of the two cohorts, it's the ones with gender dysphoria who tend to have the most invasive surgery. They would have felt female all their lives and are often effeminate. They 'pass' better.

The second cohort tend to transition late in life, after decades of cross dressing in secret.

They will often have used the narrative of the homosexual transsexuals to legitimise a fetish.

There is a schism in the community, with the first cohort trying to distance themselves from the second cohort, because cross dressing fetishists are giving men with gender dysphoria a 'bad name'.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. It's also a banned term here.

It was feminists who saw the misogyny in this ideology first, so that's why it was originally aimed at feminists. But it's now aimed at anyone who disagrees. Often followed by rape threats or die in a fire (DIAF). Men don't tend to get the threats anywhere near as much as the women do.

Gender critical women don't like the ideology for many reasons, but one of them is that reinforces damaging gender stereotypes.

Instead of a man saying I want to wear soft clothes, flick my hair, and act girly, he says in order to do those things he must be a woman. Thereby making those behaviours only things that women do.

It reinforces the gender boxes.

The gender recognition act was written in 2004 to make men able to legally become a woman. To help homosexual transsexuals navigate life easier. Also, at the time, same-sex marriage was illegal, and this was a good workaround. Become a woman, and you have a heterosexual marriage.

Coupled with that, the equalities act says that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Again, meant to help men with gender dysphoria.

It has been hijacked by AGPs who are exploiting it. It also means that men are beating women in sport, been transferred to female prisons, and all the other nonsense dreamt up by misogynists who exploit it at every turn.

I haven't mentioned women who identify as men, but that's going to have to be another post!

Thankyou for this very clear presentation of the way things are.

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Helleofabore · 16/06/2022 15:11

New survey research released on the attitudes about trans people in UK.


www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity/

If this is not live anymore, the links to search for in archive sites are :

www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity/

for the report analysis

www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/p5uln04a/britons-and-gender-identity-data-tables.pdf

For the tables.

Here are some articles about the research.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4d010462-ece3-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=3725b577b2d58b381a2773f04ce1f860

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/16/twitter-trans-rights-gender-identity-report?CMP=fb_cif&fbclid=IwAR2_XRnalnvFUY51NI8zeZfVbDzWxC49mT44LtHb1sV5oJ1SzW48dzoJ4_g

Quick conclusions:

only 19% think TW should be able to participate in women’s sport
Only 24% think male bodied TW should be able to use women’s changing rooms
only 29% think male bodied TW should be able to use women’s toilets

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Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 06:41

assets.ctfassets.net/761l7gh5x5an/4EopPD4g1xjd0aNct2SCPt/8987aec0f5a3bc020411dd2bf8cfea7e/Transgender_athletes_in_cycling_June_2022.pdf

The UCI document regarding the regulations they have brought in.

T to be 2.5 nmol / 2 years

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NecessaryScene · 17/06/2022 06:56

I'm going to put this here, because it's a complete "break it down for me" on its own, with a comprehensive list of follow-on resources.

A viewer writes to Glenn Loury, after a discussion on the topic with John McWhorter, to reassure him that his concerns are well-founded:

The Other Side of the Trans Issue - A letter from a reader

Dear Glenn,

In response to the video where you and John talk about some aspects of gender identity ideology: No, you are not a moldy old dinosaur who doesn’t get it. I believe it is something we’re “making up as we go along.” John is right, this ain’t going away, but that doesn’t mean we should assume it is progress, that it is a good thing. You should know that there are many brilliant young heterodox thinkers from both the right and the left—and outside either—who are pushing back against this ideology as being the antithesis of “progress.” I also agree with your feeling that this is a sign of decadence, of our society unravelling. It is only the WEIRD (Western, educated, industrialized rich, and democratic) countries where this ideology has taken root. As usual, you see through to the heart of the intellectual and moral problems, without even having studied this issue.

Please trust your thinking and your instincts. John is misinformed and wrong, just as all the people who have believed (and still believe, though you and others have moved the needle) that there is “open season on black people by cops” are misinformed and wrong. I firmly believed that too, until you showed me the evidence to the contrary. It took a long time for me to change my mind, because changing my mind meant that I could no longer trust media I had relied upon for accurate information. That was one of the most destabilizing events of my life, and I am still reeling.

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334bu · 17/06/2022 14:39
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Helleofabore · 18/06/2022 11:13

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

Trans girls grow tall: adult height is unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment

Lidewij Sophia Boogers,
Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink,
Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

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GrabbyGabby · 28/06/2022 12:15

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10958359/Trans-skateboarder-claimed-prize-girl-13-divorced-ex-Navy-dad-three.html

Adult 29 year old male beats young teenagers and girls in skateboarding competition.

Read how he describes living as a woman and then join the dots with some of the previous articles in this thread.

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Helleofabore · 30/06/2022 16:25

‘You can’t say that!’ – New polling shows students want more controls on free expression

The Higher Education Policy Institute has polled 1,000 full-time undergraduates on free speech issues via YouthSight, a market research company specialising in students’ views. The questions were identical to those posed by HEPI via the same polling company in 2016 (with two additions).

The new results, published as ‘You can’t say that!’ What students really think of free speech on campus (HEPI Policy Note 35) by Nick Hillman, show students are significantly less supportive of free expression than they were.


www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/06/23/you-cant-say-that-new-polling-shows-students-want-more-controls-on-free-expression/

Key findings

Free speech and discrimination

-79% of students believe ‘Students that feel threatened should always have their demands for safety respected’ (up from 68% in 2016) while 4% disagree (down from 10% in 2016).
-61% of students say ‘when in doubt’ their own university ‘should ensure all students are protected from discrimination rather than allow unlimited free speech’ (up from 37% in 2016).
-The proportion of students who believe ‘universities are becoming less tolerant of a wide range of viewpoints’ has risen to 38% (up from 24% in 2016), and this view is considerably more common among male students (51%) than female students (28%).
-The proportion of students who agree that ‘if you debate an issue like sexism or racism, you make it acceptable’ has doubled to 35% (from 17% in 2016).
Events

-Most students believe one or more political groups should be banned from speaking at higher education institutions, including the English Defence League (26%), UKIP (24%), the British National Party (19%), the Communist Party (12%) and the Conservative Party (11%) – when presented with a long list of political parties, just 13% say ‘none of the above’ should be banned from speaking (down from 27% in 2016).
-64% of students think universities should ‘consult special interest groups (e.g. religious groups or gender societies) about on-campus events’ (up from 40% in 2016).
-When asked what rights students and staff should have to respond to an event they dislike, 39% of students say they should be able to ‘hold a protest outside’, 20% say they should be able to ‘stop the event from happening’ and 12% say they should be able to ‘disrupt the event’ (all up since 2016).
-The proportion of students who think ‘gender segregation should be allowed at official university events’ is 32% (up from 20% in 2016).
Students’ unions

-86% of students support the No-Platform policy of the National Union of Students, (up from 76% in 2016) while just 5% say ‘the NUS should not limit free speech or discussion’.
-62% of students support students’ unions refusing to sell tabloid newspapers on grounds of sexism (up from 38% in 2016) while only 10% disagree.
-39% of students believe ‘students’ unions should ban all speakers that cause offence to some students’ (more than double the 16% figure in 2016).
Staffing and academic resources

-77% of students believe there should be ‘mandatory training for all university staff’ on understanding other cultures (up from 55% in 2016).
-The proportion of students who think academics should be fired if they ‘teach material that heavily offends some students’ is 36% (over double the 15% in 2016).
-When asked about university libraries, one-third of students (34%) say ‘all resources should be included for the purpose of academic study, regardless of content’ (down from almost one-half of students – 47% – in 2016).
-Trigger warnings, removing memorials and safe spaces

-86% of students support trigger warnings (up from 68% in 2016).
-76% of students think universities should always or sometimes ‘get rid of’ memorials of potentially controversial figures (up from 51% in 2016).
-62% of students support safe-space policies (up from 48% in 2016).
Government

-In response to a new question, around one-half of students (48%) support the Government’s proposal to establish a ‘free speech champion’ for universities in England. Around one-quarter (23%) disagree and the rest are uncertain (29%).

unherd.com/thepost/britains-students-will-be-woke-forever/

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Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 12:28

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33663938/

Surgical Outcomes Following Gender Affirming Penile Reconstruction: Patient-Reported Outcomes From a Multi-Center, International Survey of 129 Transmasculine Patients

Isabel S Robinson et al. J Sex Med. 2021 Apr

Of the 1,212 patients completing the survey, 129 patients underwent genital reconstruction surgery. Seventy-nine patients (61 percent) underwent phalloplasty only, 32 patients (25 percent) underwent metoidioplasty only, and 18 patients (14 percent) underwent metoidioplasty followed by phalloplasty.

Results: Patients reported 281 complications requiring 142 revisions. The most common complications were urethrocutaneous fistula (n = 51, 40 percent), urethral stricture (n = 41, 32 percent), and worsened mental health (n = 25, 19 percent).

These results support anecdotal reports that complication rates following gender affirming genital reconstruction are higher than are commonly reported in the surgical literature. Patients undergoing clitoris burial in addition to primary phalloplasty did not report a change in erogenous sensation relative to those patients not undergoing clitoris burial. Postoperative patients report improved genital self-image relative to their preoperative counterparts, although self-image scores remain lower than cisgender males.

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scissorsandsellotape · 06/07/2022 00:53
Smile
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Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 13:05

Forstater vs CGD

Stashing this link here so we know where to find it quickly, as I am sure it will be well used in the future.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Forstater-JR-AG.pdf


mforstater.medium.com/press-statement-maya-forstaters-victory-in-employment-tribunal-a-win-for-free-speech-and-99365009baa1


www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4583796-forstater-judgment-tomorrow

When a legal dissemination is posted, I will add that too.

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Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 22:55

www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/06/british-triathlon-creates-open-category-for-transgender-athletes-to-compete-at-all-levels

The significance here is that British Triathlon polled members and 80% supported female only category.

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Helleofabore · 29/07/2022 07:04

New FDA warning for PBs:

publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/20636/Risk-of-pseudotumor-cerebri-added-to-labeling-for?autologincheck=redirected


The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has added a warning about the risk of pseudotumor cerebri (idiopathic intracranial hypertension) to the labeling for gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists that are approved for the treatment of central precocious puberty in pediatric patients. These products include Lupron Depot-Ped (leuprolide acetate), Fensolvi (leuprolide acetate), Synarel (nafarelin), Supprelin LA (histrelin) and Triptodur (triptorelin).

The new warning includes recommendations to monitor patients taking GnRH agonists for signs and symptoms of pseudotumor cerebri, including headache, papilledema, blurred or loss of vision, diplopia, pain behind the eye or pain with eye movement, tinnitus, dizziness and nausea.

And

Six cases were identified that supported a plausible association between GnRH agonist use and pseudotumor cerebri. All six cases were reported in birth-assigned females ages 5 to 12 years. Five were undergoing treatment for central precocious puberty and one for transgender care. The onset of pseudotumor cerebri symptoms ranged from three to 240 days after GnRH agonist initiation.

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Helleofabore · 18/08/2022 09:10

archive.ph/2022.08.18-021255/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-dubious-transgender-science-jack-turban-research-social-contagion-gender-dysphoria-puberty-blockers-uk-11660732791#selection-329.0-329.192

The American Academy of Pediatrics’ Dubious Transgender Science

By Julia Mason and Leor Sapir
Aug. 17, 2022

A spate of headlines this month declared that America’s surge in transgender identification wasn’t being caused by a social contagion. These articles were prompted by a new study by Jack Turban and colleagues in Pediatrics, flagship journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The study claimed that social influence isn’t the reason that as many as 9% of America’s youth now call themselves transgender. Thus, Dr. Turban argues, efforts in conservative states to regulate on-demand puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery must be resisted.

Yet Dr. Turban’s study is deeply flawed and likely couldn’t have survived a reasonable peer-review process. The swift response from the scientific community made both points clear—with even those who support hormones and surgery for gender-dysphoric youth noting that Dr. Turban’s shoddy science undermined their cause.

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Janie143 · 18/08/2022 10:14

Helleofabore · 18/08/2022 09:10

archive.ph/2022.08.18-021255/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-dubious-transgender-science-jack-turban-research-social-contagion-gender-dysphoria-puberty-blockers-uk-11660732791#selection-329.0-329.192

The American Academy of Pediatrics’ Dubious Transgender Science

By Julia Mason and Leor Sapir
Aug. 17, 2022

A spate of headlines this month declared that America’s surge in transgender identification wasn’t being caused by a social contagion. These articles were prompted by a new study by Jack Turban and colleagues in Pediatrics, flagship journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The study claimed that social influence isn’t the reason that as many as 9% of America’s youth now call themselves transgender. Thus, Dr. Turban argues, efforts in conservative states to regulate on-demand puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery must be resisted.

Yet Dr. Turban’s study is deeply flawed and likely couldn’t have survived a reasonable peer-review process. The swift response from the scientific community made both points clear—with even those who support hormones and surgery for gender-dysphoric youth noting that Dr. Turban’s shoddy science undermined their cause.

Wow that's one hell of an insight into the total capture of what should be a resource which can be relied on.

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Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 18:32

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

New study from Brazil


Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

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Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 18:45

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

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