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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
TheWeeMacGregors · 01/01/2020 10:41

Marking my place to read all this

ChattyLion · 09/02/2020 09:02

Adding a very short, readable article on the writer Graham Linehan’s experience of speaking out on some of the issues he has noticed that this political dogma raises for women and children - including not being able to speak freely about these issues without Twitter abuse and other repercussions.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982837/How-hated-man-internet-writes-Graham-Linehan.html

HelloGabriel · 09/02/2020 18:46

I'm going to read this thread from beginning-to-end this week so my apologies if I'm asking something that's already been covered...but can anyone recommend any good podcasts?

Would love to listen on my commute for some further education Smile

OhHolyJesus · 09/02/2020 18:56

HelloGabriel for podcasts I recommend

Posie Parker
Magdalen Berns (maybe start with hers, she was and is still amazing)
Benjamin Boyce (I especially like his conversations with Ben GNC and Dr Ray Blanchard)
Rose of Dawn

That should keep you going for a while!

(Posie also did one with Triggernometry and if you juxtapose that with the one India Willoughby you might find that interesting)

Datun · 09/02/2020 19:26

@ HelloGabriel

Try this short clip first. It might get you in the mood. It was one of Posie Parker's first televisual outings.

She was defending the dictionary definition of the use of the word woman.

MissingLangCleg · 09/02/2020 19:27

For podcasts I'd also recommend:
Feminist Current
FiLiA Podcasts
Suffragette City Radio

HelloGabriel · 09/02/2020 20:35

Thanks 🙏 Smile

hereticsandwitches · 01/03/2020 19:48

Bumping with a couple of recent important threads illustrating how this issue interacts with freedom of speech.

It may be worth thinking about whether there is variation in how stakeholders in these discussions are allowed to speak, express their opinions or advocate on their own behalf. Are women treated differently when it comes to explaining our existence as a unique sex-defined category of humans, outlining our own needs and defending our existing legal rights?

Prof Selina Todd, a respected feminist historian, was deplatformed from an event at her own University of Oxford that was celebrating 50 years of women's liberation. That she helped organise. Because she is... involved in a women's organisation.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3835315-Selina-Todd-has-been-disinvited-from-Womens-Liberation-at-50-because-of-association-with-WPUK

And a political cartoon in the Morning Star that caused significant controversy because of how it depicted the issue of self-ID using crocodiles and newts. Which was complained about and subsequently apologised for:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3830272-Cartoon-in-the-Morning-Star

Helleofabore · 04/03/2020 12:54

Bumping this thread with this link from Julia Hartley-Brewer.

MoleSmokes · 07/04/2020 12:19

New YouTuber Arty Morty has posted some excellent videos that are a good starting point for some of the key issues.

Mumsnet thread:

"Arty Morty's excellent trans and LGB issues videos!"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3871062-Arty-Mortys-excellent-trans-and-LGB-issues-videos!

This is a good one to start with:

"TRANS KIDS VS. GAY KIDS: The Battle Over Gender-Nonconforming Children"

Video description:

"So you've got a gender-nonconforming child who is in distress. You are at a crossroads: you can choose from two different models of how to raise your child, and that is going to strongly influence how they end up as an adult. You can direct that child towards becoming a gay adult, or you can direct that child towards becoming a trans adult.

The question becomes: what is the better approach to take? Is it better to be trans than gay; is it better to be gay than trans?

What is the best outcome for these children?

The best resource to learn more about this phenomenon is" 4thWaveNow: 4thwavenow.com/

That one was his most recent video at the time of posting. Of particular interest for those who are concerned about the "trans kids" phenomenon, not ROGD but those really young kids.

It also includes reflections on the motivations of adult transitioners that mirror experiences described in the Trans Widows thread and the clash between LGB sexualities and "Gender Identity".

Arty Morty's YouTune Channel too - he has only posted a handful of videos and they are all spot on!

www.youtube.com/channel/UCsIEHEgnuo0g1sUuZ0BG--g/

comingintomyown · 08/04/2020 22:26

I haven’t read all this just feel slightly jealous of all these people who are posting from a position of intellectualism rather than living it . I’m new here 10 years on MN people say AIBU is a battleground but this ? Wow

MoleSmokes · 09/04/2020 08:56

comingintomyown - stick around, there are plenty of people posting on FWR who are "living it" in one way or another. Some in this thread though they might not have mentioned it here as they have been posting a while, whether as trans people or family members.

Shmabel · 10/04/2020 14:34

Placemarking to finish

@Datun
Your posts at the beginning of this thread should be required reading

KittyVonCatsworth · 11/04/2020 21:13

Wow! Datun, thank you for your thread and to all the other posters who have certainly opened my eyes and scrambled my brain 🤯 I'm off to read more of the links. Thank you.

R0wantrees · 13/04/2020 13:37

Lachlan Stuart's speech #ExpelMe Rally, London, 9 Mar 2020

This is an important speech in which he describes how sex-based & LGB rights & Safeguarding were disregarded in theLabour Party:

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Pzd9fuwMg3w&feature=emb_logo

R0wantrees · 13/04/2020 13:55

Prof. Selina Todd #ExpelMe Rally, London, 9 Mar 2020

Selina Todd describes the events around her 'no platforming' from the Oxford Women's Lib Conference & Labour Party

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVshVk45eNg

DickKerrLadies · 16/04/2020 13:28

Bumping this for anyone coming to MN via twitter traffic today.

R0wantrees · 01/05/2020 11:26

current thread OP EmpressLangClegInChair wrote:

"These Are Not Our Crimes

TheUterati, who was one of the first FWR women to be banned under the New Rules, has made a video listing over 70 male prisoners who claim to be women and their crimes. It's not an easy watch but it's a very important one."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NpIy-0_esU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3896235-These-Are-Not-Our-Crimes?

R0wantrees · 26/05/2020 17:49

Important articles recently published by Uncommon Ground Media.
Worth reading in order:

Dr Em
'Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part I: Benjamin, Ihlenfeld, Money & Ehrhardt'
May 1, 2020

Dr Em explores how the founding fathers of ‘scientific’ research on transgenderism/transsexualism were motivated by sexist beliefs.

uncommongroundmedia.com/sexist-science-transsexualism-part-i-benjamin-ihlenfeld-money-ehrhardt/

Dr Em
'Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part II: Robert Stoller, True Trans'
May 3, 2020

Dr Em reveals how ‘true trans’ doesn’t exist & Robert Stoller’s work shows how the ‘science’ of transsexualism/transgenderism has always been anti-feminist.

uncommongroundmedia.com/robert-stoller-true-trans/

Jennifer Bilek
'Deconstructing the “Good Transwomen”'
May 6, 2020

Transwomen who recognise the misogyny inherent in transgender and transsexual activism must still confront the objectification of women they participate in.

uncommongroundmedia.com/deconstructing-the-good-transwomen/

Dr Julia Long
'A Meaningful Transition?'
May 12, 2020

If you can’t change your sex, why are the terms ‘transsexual’ and ‘transwoman’ lent credence among British gender critical feminists?

uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/

TinselAngel
'Which Side Are You On, Girls? The Role of Trans Widows in Feminism'
May 20, 2020

The inclusion of transsexuals in the women’s liberation movement means necessarily pushing out their former partners – the trans widows.

uncommongroundmedia.com/which-side-are-you-on-girls-trans-widows/

Dr Em
'Forced Teaming, Feminism, LGB and ‘Trans Rights’'
May 25, 2020

How the tactics of predators and manipulators, forced teaming, gaslighting, boundary violations and ignoring ‘no’, are used in the course of pushing ‘trans rights’.

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers
& thanks

popehilarious · 11/06/2020 12:47

Bumping this for easy reference.

PurpleHoodie · 13/06/2020 02:32

@purplepizza

Doodar · 13/06/2020 21:59

F

R0wantrees · 15/06/2020 21:51

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

(extract)
"If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.

The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:

‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’

Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’

Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’

As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are." (continues)

We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces." (continues)

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades." (continues)
www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Flowers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3933044-Flowers-for-J-K-Rowling

R0wantrees · 15/06/2020 21:57

nia statement by Karen Ingala Smith, Chief Executive:

'Statement on News of the Government’s Intentions to Scrap Planned Reform of the Gender Recognition Act'
(extract)
nia has been supporting women subjected to sexual and domestic violence and abuse for over 40 years. We know, because throughout our decades of work women have told us, that our independence and that we provide single-sex services for women by women, matters a great deal to those who need our services.

nia has largely stood alone amongst organisations supporting women, girls and children subjected to men’s violence in our openly-expressed commitment to maintain our singles sex services and apply the exemptions in the Equality Act which permit this. We did this because we put women survivors first. This has affected some of our relationships with other organisations, commissioners, funders and other stakeholders. When we made the decision to be vocal about our position, we knew it was not be without risks, but none of these were more important than supporting women; women who, all too often, have life histories of their voices not being heard and their needs overlooked. The resistance to these changes was led by survivors and feminists, both individuals and grassroot groups. We believe that without these women, the GRA reforms would have been passed and the planned erosion of single-sex provisions by groups like Stonewall would have intensified. We acknowledge the resistance of our sisters and extend of thanks to all.

We are alarmed that attempts to erase or change the meaning of the word woman to something that is meaningless and rooted in stereotypes continues and can be seen in institutions from high-street chains to the United Nations. We are incredulous at the denial of sex differences. We are fearful for the well-being of young women who are looking at transitioning in increasing numbers. We are angry that some of those who consider themselves as acting ahead of the law, do so at the expense of women and our lawful provisions. As feminists we want to rid society of the constraints of socially constricted gender and structural sex inequality. We know that there has not yet been an official announcement on the Government’s plans regarding reform of the Gender Recognition Act, neither on maintaining and strengthening the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. It is not yet time to celebrate but we are cautiously optimistic." (continues)

niaendingviolence.org.uk/gender-recognition-act-reforms/

PurpleHoodie · 16/06/2020 10:19

Thanks R0wantrees

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