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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
R0wantrees · 20/06/2020 10:06

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

It may be useful in many circumstances to apply such definitions (respectfully) in order to make the sense and implications clearer. This is particularly relevant in circumstances which concern the Safeguarding of children or Vulnerable Adults.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man?

Break it down for me?
R0wantrees · 20/06/2020 11:19

It may be useful in many circumstances to apply such definitions (respectfully) in order to make the sense and implications clearer. This is particularly relevant in circumstances which concern the Safeguarding of children or Vulnerable Adults.

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man?

As well as protecting girls and women's safety, female spaces are also for their dignity and privacy.

Maya Forstater's article makes clear that this is an issue of women and girls' consent. A core principle of consent is, of course, that it should be informed consent.

(extract)
"Why has this become so difficult?
The rules and expectations about single sex services have become confused.

Some people think they are based on ‘gender identity’

Some think they are based on ‘gender expression’
(clothing and appearance)

Some think there are no rules at all

There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent

Where a service is provided for a single sex, whether for everyday privacy or a situation such as a rape crisis centre or a women’s refuge, there should be no need to negotiate with each individual member of the opposite sex about why it is not open to them."

a-question-of-consent.net/

PurpleHoodie · 20/06/2020 13:37

Thanks R0wentrees

R0wantrees · 10/07/2020 17:35

Fascinating chapter of women's history of protest & resistance by Lily Maynard

"7,500 words, 200 photos: everything you never knew you needed to know about #stickerwoman!"
twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/1281430737049321473

'The incredible adventures of #stickerwoman'
July 10, 2020

The first #stickerwoman?

On the morning of 22 April 1910, 20 year old Londoner Vera Wentworth pasted eight stickers on the Palace of Westminster walls. The stickers read: ‘To know more about the Women’s Suffrage Movement read “Votes for Women” Every Friday, 1d.”

Born Jessie Alice Spink, she changed her name in her teens, possibly to save her parents the embarrassment of association. A member of the secret direct action group ‘Young Hot Bloods’ she spent several months in prison, being arrested seven times and force fed four." (continues)

So the activism of the characters in La Belle Saison and the work of women like Veil and Bonnet is hugely relevant because behind the seemingly casual rebelliousness of the acts of #stickerwoman stands the very serious and ongoing battle for women’s rights.

Woman is not a feeling in a man’s head.

To quote Marie-Jo Bonnet one more time: “It is an emancipation. We are taking back the power of our own lives.”

We are all #stickerwoman.

The Rise of #Stickerwoman

Probably the first stickers to really grab public attention in recent years were the ‘women don’t have penises’ stickers. The first design was by Venice Allan, who shared her template with others, and variations sprung up around the country.

“I was originally inspired by Jacqueline of the Untameable Shrews.” Venice told me.

“What I loved about the ‘Shrews’ was that they were about sharing sticker templates that women could print out for themselves, rather than just selling stickers.” (continues)

Women don’t have penises
Back in early 2018, campaigns and feminist groups were springing up all over the country, seeking to educate the public about the very real erosion of female rights which would arise if changes to the Act went through.

“At the time I was working with Posie on AHF (adult human female) stuff,” remembers Venice, “and we were working on T-shirts and the billboards and everything, and I felt this is great but we need something a bit more fun; a bit more noticeable, a bit more controversial.

“So originally I did these very large, glossy A4 stickers. There was this big billboard near where I live and I thought how striking it would be to stick a penis on it. I did a quick design on my computer and got a place nearby to print them out. Anne Ruzlyo and Jean Hatchett tweeted out the pictures for me and also originally came up with the hashtag #stickerwoman.

Then, shortly afterwards, I went out in the night with Georgia and we did Stonewall and the Guardian and Pink News. We wanted Pink News to pick up on it. We knew they probably wouldn’t (note: they did) but it was about bringing things into real space, to the places where the journalists you want to write about it are working." (continues)

One thing the campaign certainly did highlight is how easily a simple fact like ‘women don’t have penises’ can become perceived as ‘transphobic’ and how short a step it is from there to the accusation of ‘hate speech’.

The ‘penis stickers’ were soon being created by women all over the UK. In London, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham and a hundred places above, below and in between, women were printing out the stickers and placing them in public spaces.

Pink penises, green penises, blue penises, big and little, hairy-bollocked or smooth and silky, every one bore the same message. And every woman involved became #stickerwoman. (continues)

JK Stickerwoman

Unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last few weeks, you can hardly have failed to be aware of JK Rowling’s recent tweets and the barrage of threats and abuse she has received since coming out in support of women’s sex-based rights.

Rather than repeat the entire saga, I refer you to Rowling’s website where she explains her position...
Needless to say, #stickerwoman was quick to show her support and approval when Standing for Women released these stickers. (see screenshot)
(continues)

lilymaynard.com/adventures-of-stickerwoman/

Break it down for me?
Break it down for me?
Break it down for me?
R0wantrees · 10/07/2020 22:20

Important interview with Kelie-Jay Keen.

Jackie Doyle-Price MP has already spoken out in parliament on the need to protect women's rights & Safeguard children. The interview concludes with Jackie Doyle-Right urging women to write to their MPs.

52:42
K-J K "How do people approach their mp? What do you think would be your advice ?"

J D-P "Well, write to your MP, but I can tell you that MPs pay a lot of attention to what arrives in their inbox. You know I get upwards of a hundred items a day.
You'll find that some campaign organizations are very good at organizing campaigns. Actually I don't take any notice of any of those. Everyone sends the same letter, completely useless! So you just go through the motions responding to that.
But, where people write their own letters and make their own case and it is the individual constituent telling me what they think from their hearts, I take notice.
So, I would encourage every woman who's really bothered about
this to put pen to paper to your member of parliament. And tell them what you think because once MPs realise this is something that people care about, they'll make it their business to get involved.

So, my message to women everywhere is use your voice and tell your MP what you think and then hopefully they'll come and find me out and we can see what we can do." (continues)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=R56lL7stVaE

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3964490-Standing-For-Women-Jackie-Doyle-Price-MP-My-message-to-women-everywhere-is-use-your-voice-and-tell-your-MP-what-what-you-think

TehBewilderness · 12/07/2020 23:05

Bumping this for women new to FWR who might want it.

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:59

current thread, OP howonearthdidwegethere wrote:

"Great article in Modern Law Review (open access) by Alessandra Asteriti and Rebecca Bull. Worth a read. It's a response to an article by Alex Sharpe.

Gender Self-Declaration and Women’s Rights: How Self Identification Undermines Women’s Rights and Will Lead to an Increase in Harms: A Reply to Alex Sharpe, ‘Will Gender Self-Declaration Undermine Women’s Rights and Lead to an Increase in Harms?’

www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe/

I loved this line: "We argue that self-ID creates a presumption of access to female spaces, instead of a presumption of exclusion, even for evidently male individuals."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3975057-Modern-Law-Review-article-on-self-ID-gender-critical-perspective

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 12:33

Academic Dr Em provides important history of how the women's liberation movement was impacted by those women who prioritised the demands of male TS in the 1970's.

George Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Uncommon Ground Media by Dr Em:
'What Was Happening Before ‘Just Be Nice Feminism’? Part I: Early Rumblings, 1970 – 1971'
July 12, 2020

"Dr Em charts the history of the development of ‘just be nice’ feminism and the inclusion of trans-identified males in the women’s movement.
uncommongroundmedia.com/just-be-nice-feminism-part-i/

'What Was Happening Before ‘Just Be Nice Feminism’? Part II: Beth Elliot, 1972'
July 21, 2020

(extract)
Like today, the inclusion of males claiming to be female based on sexist stereotypes split the Women’s Movement from within. This large split really began in 1972 when two lesbian feminists decided to prioritise the feelings and desires of males over females. The co-founders of Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), a lesbian civil rights group, Del Martin and Phyllis Lyons, argued for a compromise position and the inclusion of transsexuals as allies to women. This was ultimately rejected by the members, however, an exception was made for the transsexual Beth Elliott in light of his long-standing involvement. Beth was deemed a special ally to women. Jeanne Cordova reported in The Lesbian Tide in December 1972 how ‘on Tuesday, Nov. 17th, the membership of San Francisco’s Chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis voted against admitting transsexual persons into their organization. Ending a several month long “very heavy issue”.1 This description indicates the length and strength of feeling surrounding the issue of whether males with penises could be lesbians and should be permitted into lesbian activism." (continues)

It was the infiltration and inclusion of the male Beth Elliott in a lesbian feminist group which arguably birthed liberal ‘feminism’. It was reported in The Gay Liberator that ‘Commenting on the vote, Del Martin, co-founder of DOB and member of the San Francisco group, said, “DOB has always been set up as a woman’s organization. A person before having the (transsexual) operation is not legally a woman.” But a sizeable minority disagreed. “En masse and in something akin to cold fury,” the entire staff of Sisters magazine, the monthly publication of SF DOB, resigned their positions and their membership in DOB’. Women, supposedly lesbian feminists, sided with a man over women and women’s interests." (continues)

concludes:
Still, feminist pushback to males in female spaces and the Women’s Movement and Lesbian Movement and the ‘just-be-nice’ women who enabled this was on the increase. They lost the vote and male transsexuals were not to be included in the lesbian activist group, apart from one special transsexual ally – Beth Elliot. Only a few months later in 1972 Beth Elliott was expelled from the lesbian feminist group DOB over allegations that he had sexually harassed and assaulted the lesbian Bev Jo Von Dohre. Similar to the current sexual assault allegations against the trans rights activists Eli Erlik, allegations against Lilly Madigan, allegations of indecent exposure in the workplace against Jess Bradley, the rape allegations against Kami Sid, the sexual assault allegations against Andi Dier who heckled Rose McGowan, and the paedophilia allegations against trans activist Jessica Yaniv, to name just a few, the allegations against Elliott were dismissed as transphobia One of the clearest signs that people don’t really believe that these transsexuals/transgenderists have changed sex is that their behaviour will be excused and a woman disbelieved and slandered if she speaks up. Indeed, some women on the editorial board of supposedly feminist Sisters magazine with Elliott walked out over the decision to remove him because of sexual assault allegations. Some women will always support males over females. The vote of ‘No’ to include males was not taken as a complete sentence and ‘It was decided to have a National Lesbian Conference in L.A. in the spring of ’73’ because ‘D.O.B. in San Francisco [was]split over the trans-sexual issue’, part organised by the transsexual accused of sexual assault – Beth Elliot"

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-ii-beth-elliot-1972/

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 12:41

current thread, OP NellieEllie wrote:

"Really good new paper by Marcus Evans re the Affirmative model
Just had a v quick scan of this but it’s got loads of references, quotes from relevant orgs and people. A great attachment for any letter to an MP or arguing the toss with schools etc."

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B/core-reader

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3973995-Really-good-new-paper-by-Marcus-Evans-re-the-Affirmative-model

Also by Marcus Evans

Published on January 17, 2020
'Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs'

(extract)
My concerns in this field became more acute in Spring, 2018, after I retired from active work as a therapist and joined the Board of Governors of The Tavistock and Portman NHS, which hosts the National Health Service’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the aforementioned Tavistock Clinic—a public facility available to everyone in the UK. Almost as soon as I’d joined, I was made aware of the growing controversy over GIDS. A letter had come in from a group of parents complaining that their children had been fast-tracked through GIDS without any serious psychological evaluation. The author of the letter, a mother representing a group of parents, wrote to me in my role as governor, and I replied, circulating copies of that reply to other governors.

Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists. As I discovered, this was not the first time such concerns had been raised. Thirteen years previously, psychotherapist Susan Evans (who, full disclosure, is my wife) had raised her own concerns about the thoroughness of the assessment process by some staff.

As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.

I have learned, through long experience with managing clinical areas in the National Health Service, that such efforts to dismiss or discredit serious concerns about a service or clinical approach typically are driven by those seeking to evade accountability and shield their methods from criticism. Such a defensive, self-serving approach would be dangerous and objectionable in any NHS context. It was particularly worrying in the context of a service that treats vulnerable young people in the midst of life-changing, often irreversible decisions that have unknown medical consequences. And so in 2019, I resigned from the Tavistock board of governors, in protest over the Trust’s failure to address the serious concerns that Dr. Bell and parents had raised." (continues)
quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

NeurotrashWarrior · 30/07/2020 20:53

Thread discussing the interview Marcus Evans did with Posie on this paper.

He says his wife raised concerns at the Tavistock 15 years ago.

^
Marcus Evans - psychiatry sits on a knife edge www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3978928-marcus-evans-psychiatry-sits-on-a-knife-edge^

NeurotrashWarrior · 30/07/2020 20:55

YouTube link

hereticsandwitches · 03/08/2020 14:49

Useful article:
Academic paper on puberty blockers & medical ethics:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20502877.2020.1796257

GnRHa (‘Puberty Blockers’) and Cross Sex Hormones for Children and Adolescents: Informed Consent, Personhood and Freedom of Expression

By
David Pilgrim & Kirsty Entwistle

Abstract:
“Ethical concerns have been raised about routine practice in paediatric gender clinics. We discuss informed consent and the risk of iatrogenesis in the prescribing of gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogues (GnRHas) and cross sex hormones to children and adolescents respectively. We place those clinical concerns in a wider societal context and invite consideration of two further relevant ethical domains: competing rights-based claims about male and female personhood; and freedom of expression about those claims. When reflecting on the assessment and medicalization of children and adolescents presenting at gender clinics, the matters of informed consent and iatrogenic risk should be the most pressing for clinicians. However, this is not just a matter of medical ethics, it also implies the need for a full ethical debate on competing notions of personhood and the defence of freedom of expression about transgender and its implications within contemporary democracies.”

Is the academic orthodoxy wibble-wobbling a little?

R0wantrees · 31/08/2020 08:32

27/08/2020 J K Rowling statement explaining the reasons for her return of the Robert F Kennedy Human Rights Ripple of Hope Award

(extract)
"Clinicians, academics, therapists, teachers, social workers, and staff at prisons and women’s refuges have also contacted me. These professionals, some at the very top of their organisations, have expressed serious concerns about the impact of gender identity theory on vulnerable adolescents and on women’s rights, and of the dismantling of safeguarding norms which protect the most vulnerable women. None of them hate trans people. On the contrary, many work with and are personally deeply sympathetic towards trans individuals.

Kerry Kennedy, President of Robert F Kennedy Human Rights, recently felt it necessary to publish a statement denouncing my views on RFKHR’s website. The statement incorrectly implied that I was transphobic, and that I am responsible for harm to trans people. As a longstanding donor to LGBT charities and a supporter of trans people’s right to live free of persecution, I absolutely refute the accusation that I hate trans people or wish them ill, or that standing up for the rights of women is wrong, discriminatory, or incites harm or violence to the trans community.

Like the vast majority of the people who’ve written to me, I feel nothing but sympathy towards those with gender dysphoria, and agree with the clinicians and therapists who’ve got in touch who want to see a proper exploration of the factors that lead to it. They – along with a growing number of other experts and whistleblowers – are critical of the ‘affirmative’ model being widely adopted, and are also concerned about the huge rise in the numbers of girls wanting to transition.

To quote the newly-formed Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM), a group of 100 international clinicians:

The history of medicine has many examples in which the well-meaning pursuit of short-term relief of symptoms has led to devastating long-term results… The “gender affirmative” model commits young people to lifelong medical treatment…, dismisses the question of whether psychological therapy might help to relieve or resolve gender dysphoria and provides interventions without an adequate examination. www.segm.org/

I’ve been particularly struck by the stories of brave detransitioned young women who’ve risked the opprobrium of activists by speaking up about a movement they say has harmed them. After hearing personally from some of these women, and from such a wide range of professionals, I’ve been forced to the unhappy conclusion that an ethical and medical scandal is brewing. I believe the time is coming when those organisations and individuals who have uncritically embraced fashionable dogma, and demonised those urging caution, will have to answer for the harm they’ve enabled." (continues)

In solidarity with those who have contacted me but who are struggling to make their voices heard, and because of the very serious conflict of views between myself and RFKHR, I feel I have no option but to return the Ripple of Hope Award bestowed upon me last year. I am deeply saddened that RFKHR has felt compelled to adopt this stance, but no award or honour, no matter my admiration for the person for whom it was named, means so much to me that I would forfeit the right to follow the dictates of my own conscience."

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/statement-from-j-k-rowling-regarding-the-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-ripple-of-hope-award/

R0wantrees · 31/08/2020 08:51

Authentic Equality Alliance
(from website)
"AEA is a Community Interest Company Limited by Guarantee which was established in 2018 to promote the personal and professional development of women and girls. AEA is non party-political. We have two initial areas of activity.

AEA Conferences
Cultivating self-esteem, bolstering confidence and raising aspirations are key factors in personal and professional development, and especially important for women and girls. AEA conferences will inform, inspire, motivate and empower.

AEA Equality legislation Training
Everyone deserves respect and everyone’s rights should be protected. Human rights are enshrined in the 1998 Human Rights Act. In the UK’s 2010 Equality Act (EA) certain groups – known as ‘protected characteristics’ – are given protection in recognition of the discrimination and disadvantage they experience.

In accordance with our foundational aims, AEA Training has a particular focus on the Protected characteristic ‘Sex’ and the ‘Single-sex exception’.

Properly and fairly applied, the EA has the power to reduce discrimination and disadvantage experienced by women and girls

However, confusion about the application, or non-application, of the single-sex exception is widespread"

aealliance.co.uk/
Anne Sinnott (director) twitter twitter.com/AnnMSinnott

AEA are mounting a very important legal challenge:

(extract)
"Official sources provide unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act!

Yes, you read that right! It's shocking, isn't it?

For nearly 10 years, unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act (EA2010) has been displayed on the website of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and on the Government Equalities Office (GEO) website for 5 years.

Over these ten years, the guidance has been widely accessed and further disseminated by countless organisations of all types. As a result, the unlawful guidance is reflected in the equality policies of organisations and institutions throughout the UK.

EHRC and GEO guidance is in breach of EA2010, Schedule 3, Sections 26, 27 and 28

This is a legal case to ensure that EA2010 guidance accurately reflects the Act.

The Complainant is Authentic Equity Alliance (AEA), a Community Interest Company established to promote and further the interests of women and girls. The first Defendant is EHRC. The second Defendant is the Minister for Women and Equalities, who has responsibility for GEO.

In the context of a concern that guidance issued by EHRC and GEO should reflect the law, AEA fully supports the protection of transsexual people's rights (to use the EA2010 term) under existing equality legislation. What is at issue is an appropriate balance with the existing rights of women, where and when there is a conflict between those two sets of rights.

So what does the unlawful guidance actually say?

EHRC: ‘Where someone has a gender recognition certificate they should be treated in their acquired gender for all purposes and therefore should not be excluded from single sex services.’

GEO guidance says similar but refers to ‘trans people’.

This article, written by Ann Sinnott and published on 6 March 2020, gives more detail. Since publication, we have learned that the guidance has stood for almost 10 years, not the 6 years stated in the article."

uncommongroundmedia.com/the-2010-equality-act-is-being-undermined-by-official-guidance/

R0wantrees · 31/08/2020 08:54

Interview with Bev Jackson & Kate Harris, founders of LGB Alliance

twitter: twitter.com/ALLIANCELGB
website: lgballiance.org.uk/

NRatched · 18/10/2020 01:11

Bumping this thread, in response to a transactivist claiming

Shall I tell you a TRA secret? Quite often we'll be talking to someone ambivalent over GC things who will say but it's just some women with reasonable concerns, it's not about transphobia. That's when we send them a link to this forum. And they come back and go oh fuck, I see what you mean, that's fucking batshit. So yes, the more lurkers and sunlight the better.

I highly doubt they send people here, given people who come here read and learn and tend to go one way, but...for anyone sent by a TRA, or arriving here via any other means, this thread is massively useful in understanding the feminist argument. So bumping it.

VAL71 · 20/10/2020 18:44

Not quite sure where to begin, fundamentally I am concerned that women's sex based rights are being erased as sex and gender identity have become conflated. I do not believe you can choose your sex, I believe gender is a social construct that changes over time. I object to single sex spaces for women being under threat, for many women these are only safe spaces. I object that womanhood is now being defined as a "feeling" and something that can't be defined. (Do you see the same being said for men? Nope thought not). JKR stands strong in support of women's based rights, she did not the start the war and btw the she gives masses of money to charity.

HecatesCats · 20/10/2020 20:25

That's when we send them a link to this forum. And they come back and go oh fuck, I see what you mean, that's fucking batshit. So yes, the more lurkers and sunlight the better.

They really don't understand women at all do they?

jj1968 · 20/10/2020 22:40

@Datun

It might be useful if you just read the posts and try and pick it up as you go along.

It's quite complicated, as you say, with all the acronyms and different strands.

I can help you out broadly.

There are two types of transwomen, according to Blanchards typology.

Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP)

Homosexual transsexuals are generally referred to as 'genuine transwomen'. They are attracted to men, usually have gender dysphoria which is a rejection of their masculinity and their male body, and are often fairly benign, just trying to get on with it under the radar.

They are often called Truscum by autogynephiles.

Autogynephiles (AGP) are different. They are aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman. It's a sexual fetish. And they are usually attracted to women. They are often late transitioners, are often married and have fathered children.

It's this second cohort who tend to be campaigning for access to women's spaces. They are 'male lesbians', the ones with a lady dick, or female penis, the 'transwomen are women', NoDebate. They are the ones who often say lesbians are transphobic for not dating them, and their penis. See cotton ceiling.

The other complication is this second, more aggressive cohort, are attracting just regular misogynistic men who want to dismantle women's boundaries.

TIM stands for trans identifying male. It's a banned term on mumsnet.

At least 85 percent of transwomen keep their male genitalia. They may take hormones to grow breasts and get a more curvy figure, but usually keep their penis (getting breasts, or shaving jawbones, etc, is still called sex reassignment surgery. It often has absolutely nothing to do with a penis). Of the two cohorts, it's the ones with gender dysphoria who tend to have the most invasive surgery. They would have felt female all their lives and are often effeminate. They 'pass' better.

The second cohort tend to transition late in life, after decades of cross dressing in secret.

They will often have used the narrative of the homosexual transsexuals to legitimise a fetish.

There is a schism in the community, with the first cohort trying to distance themselves from the second cohort, because cross dressing fetishists are giving men with gender dysphoria a 'bad name'.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. It's also a banned term here.

It was feminists who saw the misogyny in this ideology first, so that's why it was originally aimed at feminists. But it's now aimed at anyone who disagrees. Often followed by rape threats or die in a fire (DIAF). Men don't tend to get the threats anywhere near as much as the women do.

Gender critical women don't like the ideology for many reasons, but one of them is that reinforces damaging gender stereotypes.

Instead of a man saying I want to wear soft clothes, flick my hair, and act girly, he says in order to do those things he must be a woman. Thereby making those behaviours only things that women do.

It reinforces the gender boxes.

The gender recognition act was written in 2004 to make men able to legally become a woman. To help homosexual transsexuals navigate life easier. Also, at the time, same-sex marriage was illegal, and this was a good workaround. Become a woman, and you have a heterosexual marriage.

Coupled with that, the equalities act says that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Again, meant to help men with gender dysphoria.

It has been hijacked by AGPs who are exploiting it. It also means that men are beating women in sport, been transferred to female prisons, and all the other nonsense dreamt up by misogynists who exploit it at every turn.

I haven't mentioned women who identify as men, but that's going to have to be another post!

This entire analysis is based on a highly controversial theory by a 1980s sexologist which has been torn apart in the peer reviewed literature as can be shown in these two papers.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2010.514223

Thelnebriati · 20/10/2020 22:46

Not quite sure where to begin, fundamentally I am concerned that women's sex based rights are being erased as sex and gender identity have become conflated. I do not believe you can choose your sex, I believe gender is a social construct that changes over time. I object to single sex spaces for women being under threat, for many women these are only safe spaces. I object that womanhood is now being defined as a "feeling" and something that can't be defined. (Do you see the same being said for men? Nope thought not).

I think this is well put and you speak for many of us.

supercali77 · 21/10/2020 08:05

@jj1968 that document doesn't exactly tear it apart so much as qualifies that it's not always precisely either/or. There are some cross overs. E.g. a percentage of homosexual mtf who experience arousal and some heterosexual mtf who experience none.

FindTheTruth · 21/10/2020 09:34

Bookmarking. Brilliant thread. Flowers to Datun for that post on page 1

FindTheTruth · 21/10/2020 09:36

[quote R0wantrees]Important interview with Kelie-Jay Keen.

Jackie Doyle-Price MP has already spoken out in parliament on the need to protect women's rights & Safeguard children. The interview concludes with Jackie Doyle-Right urging women to write to their MPs.

52:42
K-J K "How do people approach their mp? What do you think would be your advice ?"

J D-P "Well, write to your MP, but I can tell you that MPs pay a lot of attention to what arrives in their inbox. You know I get upwards of a hundred items a day.
You'll find that some campaign organizations are very good at organizing campaigns. Actually I don't take any notice of any of those. Everyone sends the same letter, completely useless! So you just go through the motions responding to that.
But, where people write their own letters and make their own case and it is the individual constituent telling me what they think from their hearts, I take notice.
So, I would encourage every woman who's really bothered about
this to put pen to paper to your member of parliament. And tell them what you think because once MPs realise this is something that people care about, they'll make it their business to get involved.

So, my message to women everywhere is use your voice and tell your MP what you think and then hopefully they'll come and find me out and we can see what we can do." (continues)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=R56lL7stVaE

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3964490-Standing-For-Women-Jackie-Doyle-Price-MP-My-message-to-women-everywhere-is-use-your-voice-and-tell-your-MP-what-what-you-think[/quote]
Thank you, watching now. good points on women in the labour party - a lot keeping their heads down, being interrogated by party officials

jj1968 · 21/10/2020 16:27

[quote supercali77]@jj1968 that document doesn't exactly tear it apart so much as qualifies that it's not always precisely either/or. There are some cross overs. E.g. a percentage of homosexual mtf who experience arousal and some heterosexual mtf who experience none.[/quote]
Which renders Blanchard's two type theory - which insists that gynephilic trans women are sexually attracted to themselves - meaningless. All he really discovered was that some trans women fancy men, some fancy women, some both and some are asexual. Which was hardly big news.

334bu · 21/10/2020 16:48

So why are there so many selfies of transwomen in very sexualised inappropriate clothing all over social media?

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