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Cartoon in the Morning Star

(389 Posts)
Cwenthryth Sat 22-Feb-20 21:26:37

Kristina Harrison (prominent gender. critical transwoman, WPUK supporter) just posted this on Twitter - apparently it was published in the Morning Star.

KH wrote “This cartoon appeared in The Morning Star earlier this week @M_Star_Online It is a horrific, generalised demonisation of trans people which does not belong in a civilised society, let alone a socialist newspaper. I condemn it utterly. Trans people & progressive opponents of identity politics are owed an unequivocal apology, an explanation & reassurance about what action is being taken to ensure that the line between fierce but legitimate argument and bigotry is never crossed again. Totally unacceptable. (not posting a direct link as I don’t want to facilitate any pile on against Kristina, clearly this is a sensitive personal issue for a transwoman).

Comments are supportive of KH so far. I thought it’d be a good topic for discussion here - does this ‘demonise trans people’ or does it baldly illustrate safeguarding concerns with self-ID? Is it different from the popular/accepted(?) ‘Fox identifying into the henhouse’ analogy? Hopefully we can keep things civil and respectful with no personal criticisms of Kristina.

OP’s posts: |
Chiochan Sat 22-Feb-20 21:32:46

hmmm, Id say its reasoning is sound, basically its illistrating the argument as it stands, that selfID will allow preditors to gain much easier entry to single sex spaces.
It does seem a bit over blown though with the crocodile drawing and I can see why a transperson would take offense. Its not very nuanced.

jeaux90 Sat 22-Feb-20 21:36:44

It maybe offensive to some but pretty damn spot on to others.

Taswama Sat 22-Feb-20 21:38:46

I think it makes the point about safe spaces quite clearly.

Cascade220 Sat 22-Feb-20 21:40:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

howwillthispanout Sat 22-Feb-20 21:41:30

About right to me - clumsy but salient

Awning10 Sat 22-Feb-20 21:43:06

Isn't the the point that the crocodile pretending to be a trans person?

GroggyLegs Sat 22-Feb-20 21:43:23

This bloody analogy gets messed up so often for people's own agenda. Like that Tor person saying Portillo was comparing transpeople to paedophiles on moral maze - which he absolutely wasn't.

The alligator is the rare, but very real opportunistic male who uses trans as a smoke screen to access vulnerable women.

Predatory males are indeed gross, scary & slimy. Transpeople are not. However it absolutely will be interpreted that way.

The cartoon may well illustrate this fundemental idea but it's inflammatory & unhelpful in this debate.

BritneyPeedOnALadybug Sat 22-Feb-20 21:43:26

I’ve never read The Morning Star but the drawing doesn’t look out place of similar drawings in the Guardian, Telegraph, Daily Mail etc, which are often direct and grotesquely drawn in a parody way. I suspect these types of drawings cause offence to people who share views on the opposite side of them. So a drawing taking the piss out of Labour would be laughed at but one taking the piss out of Conservative would be seen as hatred, and vice versa.

I’ve often wondered myself about the tradition behind these sorts of drawings in newspapers and where they originated from and how they can be nasty sometimes but it’s an equal opportunities nasty, not targeted bullying against a single group, imo.

Hirsutefirs Sat 22-Feb-20 21:46:06

Water isn’t a safe space from crocodiles.

Just saying.

HandsOffMyRights Sat 22-Feb-20 21:49:51

I have the fox in the hen house meme. Same sort of thing.
Makes the point very clearly.

RuffleCrow Sat 22-Feb-20 21:52:30

I think it's fair comment given Karen White etc. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg.

TorkTorkBam Sat 22-Feb-20 21:57:50

While its point is valid, it does feel like it was going out of its way to be offensive. Being offended is not illegal though. I am offended at how crap the cartoon is. Surely they could have got something better to make the same point.

PreseaCombatir Sat 22-Feb-20 21:58:55

I was just about to same the same thing, re the fox and hen house. Seen a similar one about bees and wasps.
Depends on what you see the croc as representing, trans people or opportunistic abusers.
People who see it as the first will denounce it, I personally see it as the second 🤷‍♀️

Cwenthryth Sat 22-Feb-20 22:06:16

Why would people interpret the crocodile as representing ‘all trans people’ though?

OP’s posts: |
SarahTancredi Sat 22-Feb-20 22:12:28

Why would people interpret the crocodile as representing ‘all trans people’ though?

Because theres no middle ground and no reasoning with activists.

All teachers fir example are subject to Dbs checks. All of them accept this and know that policies and regulations aren't accusatory.its not personal.

And those who take offence and take it as some kind.if personal.attack are the very people who the checks and polices etc are designed to weed out.

theflushedzebra Sat 22-Feb-20 22:16:02

I see it as the same as the fox in the henhouse tbh. And no, the croc doesn't represent "all trans people" - we know it doesn't. The croc represents the predator tricking it's way into a safe space by self ID - that's all.

theflushedzebra Sat 22-Feb-20 22:18:23

And I read that Kristine took a place on a women's football team - that is not ok.

Cwenthryth Sat 22-Feb-20 22:25:37

Can we please not make the thread about Kristina personally though - the Twitter posts seem to come from a place of an instinctive, emotional response to feeling attacked, and I don’t think we need to add to that right now. Many of us here clearly don’t read this cartoon as attacking trans people - I’d like to try and understand why some people do.

Are trans people genuinely generalised/demonised as predators, so they mistake comments such as this as the same? I’ve never seen it - only strawman arguments and (what seem like) wilful misrepresentations - but then I’m not a trans person who may be targetted with genuine accusations.

OP’s posts: |
theflushedzebra Sat 22-Feb-20 22:36:56

Kristina, along with Debbie Hayton, are taking the "side" of women, but only with the hope of being seen as the special transgender women, who belong in women's spaces, and so are campaigning alongside women's rights. It's harsh to say this, but I believe it to be the truth. DH admitted in an article recently that they were agp. This is a manifestation of some agp cases - wanting to be onside "with the women."

Cascade220 Sat 22-Feb-20 22:41:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cwenthryth Sat 22-Feb-20 22:49:34

I get that. What with the ‘misgendering’ and the ‘we mustn’t generalise’ thing, you have to couch your language so much to stay on side, it’s extremely mentally taxing. It’s depressing that it is stifling discussion of us even trying to understand things from others’ point of view.

OP’s posts: |
theflushedzebra Sat 22-Feb-20 22:50:46

As a contrast, both transwomen allies to women's rights "Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley are, I believe, attracted to men. So the old-style homosexual transsexuals. And tend not to take offence at this kind of cartoon, because they know it doesn't apply to them.

SarahTancredi Sat 22-Feb-20 23:08:39

Are trans people genuinely generalised/demonised as predators, so they mistake comments such as this as the same? I’ve never seen it - only strawman arguments and (what seem like) wilful misrepresentations - but then I’m not a trans person who may be targetted with genuine accusations

Honestly I think the problem.os more that they arent victimised. Least not as much as they claim. But the victim status is vital for the cause so where as people werent so fussed to start with well activists had to push and push and push til we all had enough and said no so they then had the victim.starting point.

Barracker Sat 22-Feb-20 23:22:02

I'n not sure I understand the offence. Surely all alligators who are also self-professed newt allies wouldn't dream of breaching newt boundaries? Surely they would condemn fellow alligators who think they can merely declare a 'transition' to newt and disrespect newt rights and safe spaces this way?

Why on earth would any such alligator ally be offended on their own behalf at such a cartoon?

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