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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison

134 replies

SimonBridges · 20/01/2018 12:57

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government?CMP=twt_gu

While I don't think that men with working penises have a place in a woman's prison, and I have no idea on this persons penis status, I think that putting someone who looks like this in a male prison is just asking for trouble.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 20/01/2018 20:25

Would a pre-op no hormones transman be put in a mens prison, even if they wanted? Of course they wouldn't for obvious reasons.

This is something that has been niggling at my mind for a couple of weeks now. The prison guidelines state that where a prisoner has a GRC they MUST be housed according to their legal sex. Discretion can only be applied where there is no GRC.

At the same time we have an astronomic rise in the number of girls IDing as trans.

At the same time we have a proposal to make getting a GRC stupidly stupidly easy.

I very much hope the prison service would find a way to not send a vulnerable transman with a GRC to the male estate but I think it would be legally ... interesting.

Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison
GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 20:28

I imagine a transman raped in prison seeking an abortion will be the point they have a re-think.

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:17

Guardian, you mean they wouldn't allow the abortion?

PencilsInSpace · 20/01/2018 22:18

I hope they have a rethink way before then Sad

GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 22:19

I don't think they'd do it 'in house' do you?

NewYearNiki · 20/01/2018 22:22

Hudson spent six weeks in jail in 2015, after she admitted head-butting a barman

From the article.

Act like a violent thug of a man and expect to be treated like one.

He got what was coming to him.

Don't lock him up with women.

Vicxy · 20/01/2018 22:35

You know GuardianLions, I have always been one of those who thought a trans wing or something is a decent idea. But after reading your post, I actually do agree with you, have never seen it put quite like that before.

I am uncomfortable with the idea though, of fully transitioned (full srs, not implants) being put in with the men mind (though don't agree with them being in the female estate either). Though I guess solitary is still an option, if its that bad. The answer will be a lot of work but its this, MAKE PRISONS SAFER FOR ALL. This does not seem to be high on anyones priorities. I get that they are criminals, but they still deserve to be as safe as possible and its unreasonable to be all 'well you commit crime, you deserve everything that comes to you'

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:36

Guardian, sorry you're going to have to spell it out for me, I can't work out what you are saying you think will happen.

Vicxy · 20/01/2018 22:39

PencilsInSpace

Even the current GRC rules are 'low' no surgery is required. Just a diagnosis, a fee, and 'living as' chosen sex.

So theoretically, a transman could have a GRC, be sent to prison and be put in with the men. That would be horrendous.

And a transwoman with a GRC and a working penis is put in with the women.

Its batshit

Cannot believe the guidelines are where a prisoner has a GRC they MUST be housed according to their legal sex.

Another reason to completely do away with GRCs tbh. They are effectively useless anyway, given they were only made to counter the fact that same sex marriage was not possible. As same sex marriage is now possible, the original reason for GRCs is moot.

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:40

Vicxy, I'm far more concerned about dwindling numbers of prison staff than I am about prisoner safety I'm afraid. I admit prisoner rights are not on my priority list but the numbers of staff being reduced won't help anyone's safety.

Anyway, surely some of the inmates are scared of Tara given the criminal record of violence, size, strength etc?

Vicxy · 20/01/2018 22:43

Well the less staff, the more unsafe prisons are, so they both tie in together really. Except with less staff, the staff are also quite unsafe, along with the prisoners.

Yes, in Taras case I would think many of the prisoners might be wary of 'her'. And 'she' is clearly not adverse to violence either.

GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 22:45

snowdrop I think a transman will go to a male prison, be raped and fall pregnant, then need to seek an abortion. Within the male prison, they don't have a facility for providing abortions, so they will need to seek outside help.
This will be leaked, lots of people will think - this is ridiculous - having to seek abortions as the result of rape in prison or if the transman doesn't want an abortion, actually conceiving innocent children by rape within prison walls. We need to re-think this situation. Biology trumps 'identity' when it comes to incarceration.

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:47

Yes Vicxy, that's what I'm saying, the two go hand in hand, but I'm far more worried for the staff, they are terrifyingly outnumbered.

I have a female friend who took early retirement from the prison services thank goodness...she worked in a female prison but that won't last.

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:49

Guardian, I see. Nah, they'll just keep it quiet unless the trans man speaks up.

GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 22:50

I am uncomfortable with the idea though, of fully transitioned (full srs, not implants) being put in with the men mind (though don't agree with them being in the female estate either).

Are you more uncomfortable about this than by a young 'pretty boy' or someone with a mental illness or learning or physical disability? If so, why?
Is it the surgically constructed neovagina? The silicone implants? The mental illness?
There are so many different vulnerabilities men have, I don't see why been surgically made to look like a woman in some ways is the most important. One thing is for sure - they will never get pregnant as a result of rape. They won't have the indignity of 'slopping out' while menstruating...

GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 22:52

You think a baby being born in a men's prison won't get to the press?

PencilsInSpace · 20/01/2018 22:53

YY Vicxy nobody in prison should be assaulted, intimidated or humiliated and this needs to be made a much higher priority. There have been some awful reports about conditions in prisons lately, the latest being Liverpool.

Solitary is not an option because it causes extreme mental distress and is a human rights violation.

It shouldn't be our problem though where everyone is housed in the prison system, or where everybody goes to the toilet, gets changed, sleeps, gets counselling, a bed for the night if homeless or fleeing from violence etc.

It's up to trans people to make reasonable demands that don't shit on women and girls and I will support them in that but I'm not their mum and I won't make this my problem to solve.

Snowdrop18 · 20/01/2018 22:59

Guardian I meant an abortion woukd be covered up. Baby, less so Grin

GuardianLions · 20/01/2018 23:01

Grin - nothing highlights biology quite like giving birth to a human!

Weezol · 20/01/2018 23:14

An unpleasant individual all round. I'm liking the irony that Tara is okay with the term 'shemale'.

I have a lot of concerns around the current TRA agenda and disagree with lots of things they say. I have a friend who has a GRC and if she talks about it at all, she uses the term transsexual.

But she's like all the other ordinary TS folks and just wants to get on with life as usual as have the couple of TS colleagues I've worked with.

But accept the label 'shemale'? Fuck no, that's derogatory with bells on. As is 'cis' 'truscum' and all the other bollocks currently drifting around.

OlennasWimple · 20/01/2018 23:24

This is why the self-ID proposals are a big deal - instead of those requirements you'd just have to sign a form

And Tara Hudson couldn't even be bothered to sign the form for a GRC, considering that he met all the requirements (I believe, from the press reporting) currently in place

Vicxy · 21/01/2018 02:34

Are you more uncomfortable about this than by a young 'pretty boy' or someone with a mental illness or learning or physical disability? If so, why?

Hmm not really. Its something I have never thought too deeply into to be honest. Definitely a physically disabled man would be more at risk than an able bodied transitioned transwoman. Honestly, I don't think many male people are safe in prison. Female prisons from what I know are generally much better, but a friend of mine was stabbed whilst in a female prison, so I don't think they are as rosy as it seems.

And Tara Hudson couldn't even be bothered to sign the form for a GRC, considering that he met all the requirements (I believe, from the press reporting) currently in place

Fairly sure Tara is a raging AGP. So very possibly did not meet the 'diagnosis of gender dysphoria' part, unless 'she' lied convincingly.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/01/2018 08:06

You don't even need to see a full body photo, much less a penis, to know that Tara is male. A quick glance at the face is enough, as it is in the vast majority of cases.

Someone pointed out upthread that women's prisons just aren't equipped to house very violent prisoners. Build a special section for them in the men's prison if needed. Forcing women to share a cell with male prisoners is cruel and unusual punishment.

SimonBridges · 21/01/2018 09:51

I agree that vulnerable people in prison need to be keep safe

However the problem with prison is that by its very nature it’s full of violent people who don’t follow the rules.

OP posts:
Glitterypinksoap · 21/01/2018 10:24

It's up to trans people to make reasonable demands that don't shit on women and girls and I will support them in that but I'm not their mum and I won't make this my problem to solve.

Yes to this. I don't have all the answers, no one does.

Yes, some TRAs will demand that they want what they want, which is in to women's spaces. (As noted, no trans men longing to get into male prisons). A third space meets the real need of safety and dignity and recognition of rights without allowing this as the solution which would expose it for what it is: validation and overcoming boundaries around women. A third space offers a choice that meets Equality Act reasonable adjustments: you're not ok with your sex allocated provision because of privacy, dignity, safety, ok you can opt into a specific provision if you'd prefer, without throwing women under the bus. With the prison service equally able to impose a transfer to trans specific provision for someone using trans ideology to make a nuisance of themselves and cause disruption in male provisions.

Yes, many men are vulnerable in mens prisons. That's not ok at all, no one should be abused or assaulted and it shouldn't be acceptable. But those men are not claiming to be women and demanding to use women's facilities. To provide a specific trans wing and immediate transfer there to a situation where everyone is trans and its everyone's daily normality I think may drop the large numbers of male prisoners identifying out of the blue: a normal prison wing removes special privilege and recognition from other non trans prisoners, different treatment, or the potential of getting into a women's prison. If that was the immediate option offered then many casual/piss taking 'transitions' may fade away, the perceived benefits would drop unless they were a genuinely trans and vulnerable person.

I do understand not wanting to agree to perceive privilege and to stay firm to the lines of a man is a man is a man even when there is a constructed vagina and breasts, and those needs should be catered for in the male estate - some men have breasts and wear dresses get over it. I do understand women are very angry about this and losing patience. I just think that providing that reasonable adjustment of a third space is a neutral step rather than a perceived aggressive one, it's one that is hard to argue with because it meets the explained needs on everyone's behalf (and leaves the only remaining argument of validation with no where to go) and discourages and deals with pisstakers using performed womanhood casually for personal gain which is a very major part of this.

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