Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison

[SimonBridges]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government?CMP=twt_gu

While I don't think that men with working penises have a place in a woman's prison, and I have no idea on this persons penis status, I think that putting someone who looks like this in a male prison is just asking for trouble.

Tara is a man
perfectly capable of coping in a men's prison

I just posted this earlier on Bluestocking as I didn't know there was a thread

I find the official responses heartening as well, like at last some actual consideration of biology!

Trans wings sound like a sensible option, does anyone know if there's any desire for that outside of MN? Or any good reasons why not?

Ah

Mum has heels on as well and Tara doesn't.

The pics that are not posed and give some context around (other people ) tend to give a different impression than the carefully posed, by themselves ones.

I don't understand why people say "women can be tall!! are you saying women who are tall are men???!!!" No. But, look at that person. how would they fit in, in a female environment. They are much bigger, have a history of violence offences, a working dick, I mean, come on.

The solution to this is NOT putting them in with the women, nor is it putting them at risk with the men, but TW are only one group who are at risk in prison amongst men, the whole thing needs to be sorted out.

Itscurtainsforyou - I struggle with why a man, identifying as a woman (and being sure about this), wouldn't have surgery to remove male genitalia.

Several reasons:

• It's major surgery and the results are often not great. It leads to infertility and loss of sexual feeling.

• Many men who identify as women have autogynephilia i.e. becoming sexually aroused at the idea of themselves as a woman. Keeping the penis allows them to do something with this arousal IYSWIM.

• In Tara's case, removing the penis would hinder Tara's career as an escort who advertises their 7" surprise as a USP.

If they did, I don't think I'd have a problem with them going to a female prison (if it were up to me).

I would still have a problem. Men are on average bigger and stronger than women and much more violent. None of these factors are changed by genital surgery.

Is this case it seems that Tara is happy to have ambiguous gender (which is her right), but it makes it very difficult to know how/if she can access services which are segregated on the basis of sex. Is the answer to stop segregating on the basis of sex (obviously this may work better with toilets etc than prisons, safe spaces etc).

Tara identifies as a woman & would probably describe the penis as female.

Prison guidelines are that anyone with a gender recognition certificate (GRC) must be housed according to their legal sex. For trans people without a GRC, decisions are made on a case by case basis. You can get a GRC without having genital surgery. You currently need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and 2 years 'living as' the desired sex.

This is why the self-ID proposals are a big deal - instead of those requirements you'd just have to sign a form.

The answer is absolutely not to stop segregating by sex, especially in situations that affect particularly vulnerable women like prisons. The answer IMO is to strengthen the sex based exceptions in the equality act and to provide whatever 3rd spaces reasonable trans people feel they need for their dignity and safety.

Damson

Issues around numbers, and also they try to put people near to home where possible so family can visit more easily.

At the moment they would be put away from others and have much less communal living / human contact which would be very difficult.

There are reasons that they want away from the men and in with the women rather than being shut away on their own. Which are valid. If I were Tara I would want in with the women too, not to do anything dodgy but to feel and probably be safer. However, you can't just say anyone who would rather go with the women, sign here.

It is very difficult.

Tara did get moved to a womens prison so the DOJ's assertion that Tara is male from a legal perspective is even more worrying - they deem Tara a man and put Tara in with the women. Yeah, not good.

I don't get why transwomen are seen as so much more vulnerable than other vulnerable men in prison.
Why the fuck do they need their own wing?

Guardian, I have to say, when the person in question actually isn't transsexual, I can't see what the danger is of putting them in the biologically correct prison either.

if you'd asked me 10 years ago I'd have assumed Tara had fully transitioned though and I still think it's a key part of the confusion.

Trans wings is just going to start more demands for special treatment and prisoners will simply declare they are trans to get where they want to go.

does anyone know if you could have a prison that was for men and women with penises and a prison for men and women without penises.
I guess you cant discriminate on a physical characteristic.

Thanks pencilsinspace that's really helpful, I'm struggling to get my head around it all.

Although there was a violent offender in prison who chopped off his own dick to prove he is now a woman and should be in a woman's prison.

Women are not dickless men.

So guardian - if someone saw themself as female and then had gender reassignment surgery, you'd still not see them as female? Is that because of the physical strength thing, the history of growing up male?

Here is Tara's working page (was Tia Star, now Dannii Dixon)

www.escortwiz.com/europe/united-kingdom/bath/transsexual-escorts/naughty-shemale-dannii-dixon-bath-bristol-xx-24

I find it hard to think of someone making a living from their 7 in penis as a woman.

A person who has had surgery and hormones to look like the opposite sex does not actually become a member of the opposite sex. They become an approximation / facsimile.

If that means they are happier then that is AOK, but to insist that they literally have changed sex is, well it's just incorrect.

Is that because of the physical strength thing, the history of growing up male?

They still are male and always will be. But male socialisation is an important factor, yes.

Ok - one last question. I'm wondering if we'd have fewer people wanting/claiming to change gender if there weren't such stupid stereotypes about how to be male/female - or is that a bit simplistic?

I know a few people who've transitioned male to female and their whole mannerisms etc have changed.

Throw him into the protection wing with the police informers and sex criminals.

He is a violent criminal not a shrinking violet who's delusions need to come before the protection of vulnerable women.

The photo of the Playstation controls resting on Tara’s ample decolletage was a classy touch! 🙄 (So glad I don’t rely on a work mobile.)

Those silicon things on his front are a lot bigger than they were: i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6734702.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/PAY-Tara-Hudson.jpg

Boohoo fgs

Ok - one last question. I'm wondering if we'd have fewer people wanting/claiming to change gender if there weren't such stupid stereotypes about how to be male/female - or is that a bit simplistic?

I think that's bang on, and not at all simplistic.

So guardian - if someone saw themself as female and then had gender reassignment surgery, you'd still not see them as female?

Yes that is correct. Though I might use female pronouns so as not to appear antagonistic.

Is that because of the physical strength thing, the history of growing up male?

It's because I stopped pretending I believe in the possibility of actual 'sex change'.

Someone who has or has ever had testes and a penis cannot be female. Likewise someone who has or has ever had ovaries, womb, vulva and menses etc, cannot be male. Surgeons are not 'God' - they can't perform miracles.

Some people, because of their (and their influencers) narrow, steroetypical view of their own sex, believe they were meant to be born the other sex.

Others have a mental illness where the believe their body is the wrong sex.

These beliefs are dysfunctional and untrue.

They might find relief through pretending to live as they imagine the opposite sex lives. But they haven't changed sex.

Both biology and socialisation according to biology are the reasons why males and females are distinctly different, whichever way they identify, whatever medicine they take or what surgery they undergo.

They state Hudson “is as a matter of biological fact a man” and add that the term “transwoman” has no legal significance. They say they have adopted female pronouns when referring to Hudson only “out of respect for her wishes”.

This should be an interesting case..but

Last year Theresa May announced she would reform the gender recognition act, allowing people to self-identify and removing the need for medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria before someone can officially change gender.

This is just suck bollocks. Removing a diagnosis of gender dysphoria as a requirement for one being trans. Its just ridiculous.

Hudson also alleges that an inmate groped her breasts and genitals, leaving her “threatened, distressed and humiliated”

Also this..surely its 'normal' to be groped in prison. It shouldn't be, but it is.

The answer is making male prisons safer, not putting male prisoners in the female estate. Actually while they are on it they could make the female prison safer. A friend of mine was stabbed while in prison.

They should reform the GRA by completely repealing it. Pretending people can change sex massively confuses the issue. Legally protect peoples right to "present" how they like, but don't allow the legal fiction of "changing sex"

Tara did get moved to a womens prison so the DOJ's assertion that Tara is male from a legal perspective is even more worrying - they deem Tara a man and put Tara in with the women. Yeah, not good.

Maybe one of the women who were locked up with Tara should start a law suit to run parallel to this one.