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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Go Fund Me addiction part 2

556 replies

SophoclesTheFox · 19/01/2018 19:44

The conversation is far from over on this...

link

OP posts:
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9
Vicxy · 23/01/2018 15:57

Seems whoever it was deleted their reply to me. or blocked me after posting it

Here is a very similar one though

On a convo about what the TRAs did wrong with the spreadsheet, ie. breaking the law

In the absence of evidence of any harm (in comparison to the use of trans people's names as aliases for donors to the gofundme, for example), it feels like this is sensationalising what is really just a counter-movement to your campaign.

Yes, there is evidence of using trans peoples names in gofundme donations actually harming them. No recognition that those names are not trademarked to transpeople in the first place

LangCleg · 23/01/2018 15:59

Sorry, more rant required!

I mean, why can't Dawn Butler and the rest of the idiots in Labour just say, "We think all TW should be eligible for AWS, regardless of GRC status, but the law doesn't currently support this. We'll put it in our manifesto to change it." - if that's what they think?

I'm raging almost as much at the sheer stupidity as I am at the fact they're willing to throw women under the bus.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 23/01/2018 16:01

Making sense is so 2014, get with the program Vicxy.

HaruNoSakura · 23/01/2018 17:32

Datun

Legally? Difficult to say. There's next to no case law to work with on this so trying to work out what's considered legal or not by the courts, which is why you can end up with so much conflicting advice coming from different legal experts. Essentially, what they are doing is trying to work out which way a court will rule based on already established constitutional principles that the courts use to interpret legislation, a rough handful of which are:

• What isn't forbidden is allowed - one of the fundamental underpinning constitutional principles guiding all law and how it is to be interpreted in England & Wales (E&W)

• Intent - What is the law intended to do? First preference tends to be given to any intent worded in the statute, followed by intent expressed by the Government of the day and/or Parliament & Committee that passed the statute, followed by guidelines issued by any Government as to how the law is to be interpreted.

• the Golden Rule - the act of interpreting legislation by not applying the literal meaning of the words laid down in statute where applying a literal interpretation would lead to '...any manifest absurdity or repugnance...', or '... obnoxious to principles of public policy', or where the wording the statute itself is ambiguous or it's literal interpretation would be absurd.

• Constitution and rights - we've got about 900 years of constitutional law to draw upon and the reason why society and the law isn't riddled with competing rights is because courts tend to actively rule in ways to avoid there being a conflict in rights.

• Lessons 2 and 3 when you first start being trained in Law, or study Law - Lesson 3 - the Law is not about Right & Wrong. Lesson 2 - the Law is not about Justice, or getting justice. Ideally, the Law is there to ensure the order and smooth working of society; more pessimistically it's a tool to ensure that those in power stay in power by attempting to enforce an ordered society. As a country we're an example of the former, places like Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan are examples of the latter.

Now I'll try and keep this next bit as short as possible, so it will skip stuff, but the alternative is a truly massive wall of text, and it could still be that, so I apologise.

I'll cover the big elephant in the room first. Sex. How is somebody's sex defined in law. In terms of statute, there isn't really any big overarching statute that defines this is woman, this is man because there didn't need to be until very recently. Used to be the courts just went off of what was based on whatever government issued ID you had, which in turn would, somewhere along the line, be based on your birth certificate. Now, Government has issued directives and guidelines to the government departments responsible for issuing ID allowing somebody to have ID issued in one gender, whilst their BMD (birth, marriage, death certificates) have them listed as another. Whether you agree with the policy or not, it's a legal reality. So how will the courts rule on what determines a person's sex? One side will argue that birth certificates are the best determinator. The other side will argue that this interpretation and application of law goes against the aggregate wording and intent of the GRA2004, the wording and intent of EA2010 with special notice being given to how the intent of EA2010 alters the intent of GRA2004, and that this change of intent is reinforced by the issued guidelines to HM Passport Office et al; and that self-identification of sex is not forbidden in law, so therefore to avoid a ruling that is obnoxious to principles of public policy as laid out by successive Governments the Court should determine that a person's sex is the sex that they declare themselves to be, as long it is reasonable and not forbidden by law. Really difficult to see how that would end up. It's a coin toss to be honest, and I doubt that would see a court make a ruling so sweeping that it incorporates this much below the level of the Supreme Court.

Then there's the argument about how gender and sex are different things. Legally they aren't unless otherwise specified in a specific piece of legislation. The courts will recognise that generally the words are used interchangeably, both on a casual level of conversation, and within statutory legislation (GRA2004 s9.ss1 as one example).

Could a party allow a selection process that discriminates in favour of more than one protected characteristic? Theoretically, yes. It's not forbidden anywhere in EA2010 s104 so the first point on the bullet list would apply, but how would it apply if one of the characteristics is sex? Take a hypothetical Women's Party that has two selection processes: one selection process for all women, one selection process for BaME women. Would that second list be legal? Is it legal to incorporate two protected characteristics into a selection process (almost certainly yes), does the fact that the selection process incorporate the protected characteristic of sex mean that the selection process is covered by EQ2010 s104.ss7 thereby meaning that although the selection process discriminates in favour of BaME Women the overarching consideration is that the discrimination is based first on sex, and secondary consideration is then given to race (I'd lean towards the courts ruling yes, given the intent of the law), and if not, does the fact that the party offers a selection process separate from the BaME Women's selection process fill the legal requirement of EQ2010 s104.ss6 even though that separate selection process itself is only legal under EQ2010 s104 as a whole (perhaps).

So, to finally answer your question. When it comes down to an actual court decision, and I need to emphasise that, a court decision not a decision of another body, would a court rule that a woman who is eligible to be part of a sex-selective selection arrangement be discriminated against if such an arrangement included trans women for consideration in that selection arrangement. I don't know. Experience tells me that in cases exploring areas of law that haven't really been explored courts in the first instance really like to make their rulings as narrow as possible, so if I went with my gut I feel that that the courts will kick this decision back to whichever political party that's being sued, stating that it's up to the political party to determine who meets the eligibility requirements for a specific selection process, provided those requirements are reasonable in law. It doesn't look like a narrow decision on the surface, but it really is. With that decision the courts will have managed to avoid defining in law how you define somebody's gender since the new Government guidelines have come out, they'll have avoided producing a ruling that might have created competing rights, and they've avoided a ruling on the legality of self-id of gender. Otherwise, could a political party create a selection process that discriminates in favour for those who meet the qualifying conditions of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment? Certainly, yes.

Fortheloveofscience · 23/01/2018 18:01

Haru - whoa. What an outstanding post. Thank you for explaining all that.

DonkeySkin · 23/01/2018 18:31

Thank you for that most informative (if depressing) post, Sakura.

So it may be the case that a court could rule that the objective meaning of sex was effectively extinguished in law with the GRA2004, when the government created the means to falsify information on birth certificates.

I have a question that puzzles me about this analysis (which also cropped up when a US court ruled that 'gender identity' is interchangeable with sex WRT Title IX) and that is that even if you accept the legal argument that (fictionalised) birth certificates determine sex, or that self-declaration determines sex, you are still left with the underlying, unresolved question of defining 'sex' itself. It seems that any such ruling, while giving the appearance of redefining sex, does no such thing - it actually obliterates sex as a meaningful concept.

It extinguishes the basis on which the very meaning of sex (having female or male reproductive biology) rests, while not actually substituting a coherent definition in its place - thus you have a shell of a legal category with no meaning, and which is not fit for purpose for the reasons that we have sex as a legal category in the first place, e.g., segregation in areas where public nudity would be expected, identifying sex discrimination, etc.

This same absurdity arises WRT to allowing people to 'self-declare' their sex on their passports and any other identity document: identifying characteristics on such documents are only there because they record objective facts about a person that help to identify him or her. If 'sex' is truly (and legally!) a subjective 'feeling' that can only be determined by the individual, then it does not belong on identity documents at all.

By way of analogy, if the government decided to allow people to alter their date of birth on their birth certificates, and to self-declare their age on passports, then D.O.B. would become useless as an identifier; and if the courts ratified this new, non-biologically based concept of 'age', and accepted that it was a matter of self-declaration, then the legal category of age would also no longer be fit for purpose for the reasons that we recognise it in law, such as age of consent laws, pensions etc.

I wonder if lawyers could get any traction from pointing out that sex itself needs to be objectively defined, if we are to recognise it as a legal category at all.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 19:18

Does the fact that it's theoretically possible to exclude trans identified males even with GRC from certain positions like rape counsellor have any weight? By which I mean that the law recognises that they are not exactly the same as women? Even with the legal gender change certain exemptions are possible.

ATeardropExplodes · 23/01/2018 19:20

It does get better apparently

Members will be able to indicate if they self-identify as BAME or disabled so Labour can collect statistics that are more accurate

Lol. I can't stop laughing. What a bunch of fucking wankers.

QuentinSummers · 23/01/2018 19:35

Fuck me. So not only women under the bus for TIMs but also BAME and disabled people Shock
Did not see that one coming.
Labour have jumped the shark.
This needs to go in AIBU

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:18

Shock wtaf?!

Fuck me.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:19

Sorry to accidentally copy your expletive, quent Grin

HaruNoSakura · 23/01/2018 20:27

DonkeySkin

You've walked right into the reason why it's considered a last resort to take things to court, especially when arguing a case that hasn't had similar cases like it before the Courts before. Essentially, as soon as a court makes a decision, at a very minimum that decision becomes part of the case law that then guides and informs all other similar cases that appear before the court. On the Civil side of the law you then have to take into account the type of Court making the decision. A case like this would be heard at the High Court, which means that not only would the decision create case law, it would also create judicial precedence, meaning that the judgement made would have to be made by all lower courts in similar cases and, with a few exceptions, would also be binding on the High Court itself.

But say somebody takes the risk and gets a court judgement that works for them. Well, enter the counterpart to the Judiciary - the Legislature (on a lower level the National Legislative Bodies, and then Westminster Parliament as a whole). It's another constitutional principle that Parliament is sovereign, meaning that, in theory, it can pass any legislation it likes and the Judiciary has no choice but to enforce it. (In practice the system is actually slightly more balanced than that, in part as being part of the European Court system but also, as this Government has found out, if the courts have ruled directly against the Government and the Government then gets Parliament to change the law solely to evade the court's judgement, then the Court will slap the Government down and call what they've done is illegal, (but that's really rare)). So, by and large, Parliament can pass any legislation it likes, and it has been known to get a statute passed in a day, so we're in situation where the laws that we live by, and the definitions that surround concepts within statute, can changed at any point for any reason. So, if the courts pass a judgement that a current or future Government decides doesn't suit its public policy then the Government can just bring in legislation changing the law and can do so surprisingly quickly.

And this is why trying to obtain a legal definition of concepts that we tend to take for granted (as opposed to seeking a clarification of an existing point of law) is generally considered futile. It doesn't matter what definition is made in statute because it's a definition written in sand and can just as easily be washed away with the next tide, and although the legal side of things thrives on exact definitions, the definitions are as narrowly tied to the case as it's possible to make because that way any statutory change to the definition has as much of a minimum impact as possible on the body of case law.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:40

Learning lots from you Haru. Thank you.

DonkeySkin · 23/01/2018 20:41

Thanks HaruNoSakura.

From your posts it sounds like feminists would be taking a risk in getting a court to adjudicate on this matter, as it could result in entrenching self-ID of legal sex rather than striking a blow against it.

And maybe the point that I keep returning to - that sex itself needs to be objectively defined, if it is to be fit for purpose as a legal category at all - would be better put to the public and ultimately the parliament than the courts.

JaimesGoldenHand · 23/01/2018 20:45

Or we could base it on y'know, objective, observable reality.

HairyBallTheorem · 23/01/2018 20:51

Thank you Sakura for some of the most interesting and informative posts I've read in a long time. (If I'm getting the upshot of this right, JJ's case, if heard in court, will be interpreted so as to have as narrow a set of implications as possible - and also, might misfire on JJ).

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:54

I think it all comes down to public perception. We need these issues to be openly debated in the media, like on the BBC etc. And freely debated. No agenda setting, no dismissive spin and propaganda.

SophoclesTheFox · 23/01/2018 21:20

Really interesting posts, harunosakura. I've had a long day and I'm now struggling to absorb the detail, but will read again when I have more spare brain.

I'm a bit disheartened by the feeling that this is another route by which we might stand up for women that's being blocked off. I feel quite powerless a lot of the time, and this felt like doing something, not just shouting into the abyss while everything goes to shit around us.

OP posts:
Debbie6666 · 23/01/2018 22:06

HaruNoSakura

Thanks for the informative posts. I do wonder though if the protected characteristics of the EA2010 act are not in competition but actually work together for trans people.

There is no dispute that AWS allow under exception to the sex characteristic the legal discrimination in favour of women. But rather than working against this the protected characteristic gender reassignment covers the self ID of trans people to be considered for all purposes where there is not a proportionate means to a legitimate aim, as their self ID sex, a matter reinforced by not applying discriminatory documentation practices on that protected groups. Ie if they ask for a driving licence as ID then it has to be for trans people also who can obtain such without a GRC.

In essence the exception clause of sex to allow aws is only in conflict with gender reassignment characteristic if the intent of the gender reassignment characteristic is rejected entirely or it can be shown its a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to deny trans women.

Chincywincy · 23/01/2018 22:56

I have had an email from GO Fund Me and have been told i can no longer make donations to any of their campaigns, the gits!

mimivanne · 23/01/2018 23:03

Chincywincy

What are you supposed to have done !

Akire · 23/01/2018 23:05

How can they do that? Surely they accept the campaign at the start so even they wanted it only to be certain ones they agree with that should be at the start.

ShoesHaveSouls · 23/01/2018 23:35

£19,105

Donations still coming in - Manchester Feminist Network gave £100.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/01/2018 23:36

I'm trying to follow what is happening, but I'm terribly lost.

Has there been an official announcement or not? Or just twitter speculation?

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