“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

I’ve tried this before-but please can someone explain the thinking behind this to me. I am naive enough to think that there must be some- is it the “male brain/female brain” thing? And where did it come from? Where did it start?

Please-no abuse from either “side”. Just statements of fact. With links to evidence if possible.

The thread says: 'please can someone explain the thinking behind this
[transwomen are women] to me. I am naive enough to think that there must be some- is it the “male brain/female brain” thing?'

If you debate with TRAs then sooner or later they bring up brain differences. There has been some research in this area, Guillamon is a name that keeps cropping up. Personally I feel that, since society is bending itself over backwards to accommodate trans ideology, we should have a lot more research into it, involving tens of thousands of people if possible. At the moment we're going off tiny surveys and subjective opinions. My guess is that we'd find that 'trans' is nonsense except in a minuscule number of cases of sexual dysphoria, which might eventually be treatable without a 'sex change'.

Yes, 53rdway- that’s broadly what’s happening in my brain too. And I struggle, because I find it very distressing to be apparantly on the non- liberal side of this issue. I have been active in politics and in gender politics for nearly 40 years, and this is the first time I have felt as if I was an exclusionist rather than an inclusionist. And that seems to go against all my beliefs and principles. But that is where I am.

@NotTerfNorCis Yes but the transwomen are women and the brains are different are two very different issues. They are not linked.

Let's start with the basics. Sexuality and sex are different. Gender is a social construct. I've known this since the 1970s. It's not difficult.

That is why the premise of the OP is wrong to begin with. And it's their second thread on this.

If you all want to discuss the differences between the brains, then do so under a heading that is clear and concise.

Trans ideologues believe in a 'gender essence' which resides in the brain. It's in their interests to prove that male and female brains are different, and to find the seat of this 'gender'.

What they've done is subvert the concepts of sex and gender. Biological sex is physical. Gender is the social construct. Or at least that's how feminism had it. Now TRAs say that gender is in the brain and biological sex is the social construct. In other words, a penis can actually be female if the 'innate gender' is female. That's a huge, huge leap and this is why I think we need rigorous scientific research covering tens of thousands of cases (not just the few dozen in existing surveys).

Elendon that BBC link.... the BBC actually posted that homophobic article and are standing behind it.

Having a sexual orientation is now officially 'transphobic' in the UK according to the establishment. The T just ate the LGB. We're supposed to be shouting 'yay'.

Stop the fucking world, I want to get off.

Has anyone brought up the taxi driver brain yet?
To know if there were innate differences you would surely need to start your studies with newborns rather than adults. Our brains are affected by our lives.

So if TRAs brought up that men and women poo differently (actually, I'm sure there is scientific evidence to support this nonsense), would and should it be taken seriously?

“That is why the premise of the OP is wrong to begin with. And it's their second thread on this.”

Can you explain why the premise is wrong, please? And I explained why I started another thread. Oh, and can I have female pronouns, please?

Oh and not let us forget that there may well be differences between the way in which 'gay and straight' people poo as well thrown into the mix (so to speak).

As I said in my post you responded to, but deliberately left out, the discussion that transwomen are women and the ''male brain/female brain' thing' are separate issues.

They can refer to she/he. As in female/male. Woman/man.

^Has anyone brought up the taxi driver brain yet?
To know if there were innate differences you would surely need to start your studies with newborns rather than adults. Our brains are affected by our lives.^

I was just about to @Mistresssiggi

Do they have larger hippocampus's because they use that area of the brain more than the average person, or is it because of their larger hippocampus' that they're drawn to jobs which involve some sort of navigation. The latter is the sort of logic used by blue brain/pink brain proponents.

Bah, messed up the italics. The first couple of sentences are a quote from Mistresssiggi

I see them as real women except for relationship purposes'

Read: I see them as real women right up until the point where it will affect me, instead of just women.

There is some research out there that seems to show transwomen have some more typically 'female' brain architecture, but not being a scientist/medic I don't know how legit it is

It's not legit.

Read Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender' for the most comprehensive summary of ALL the major 'brain sex' studies.

Short version? Innately there are almost no differences. Any differences observed in adulthood are either irrelevant to function (how thick your corpus callosum is, or how heavy your brain is is neither here nor there) or entirely a result of environmental experiences due to treatment of the sexes being different)
Or, and this was an eye opener for me, differences are in fact falsely concluded by either researcher bias or plain old bad methodology.

irretating: "Do they have larger hippocampus's because they use that area of the brain more than the average person, or is it because of their larger hippocampus' that they're drawn to jobs which involve some sort of navigation. The latter is the sort of logic used by blue brain/pink brain proponents."

Exactly. And we all know that the scientific consensus is that they have a larger hippocampus because they use that area of the brain more. You can see the same effect in musicians, and in other people who practise a skill that requires the use of a particular part of the brain. The brain is plastic - we all know this now. Cordelia Fine is good on this, but it shouldn't even need to be said - the idea that there are such things as "male" brains and "female brains" is positively Victorian.

When I posted that I didn't see that Barracker had already mentioned Cordelia Fine!

Why all the guffing on about brains?

Were you born with a dick? Male
Were you born with a fanny? Female

It is bias and bad methodology. If you are a surgeon who specialises in gender reassignment then of course you are going to conduct a 'scientific analysis' to support your speciality. It makes economic sense.

LOL at all the excemptions that gren dude makes in his own thread about how trans women are real women

mobile.twitter.com/greenrd/status/952234757097705483

Seems to mean 'except' in all situations transactivists are wailing about

Then when he realises he is making exceptions for pretty much every situation, he starts saying lesbians can rape too. Hmm.

I’m going to repost this:

www.recordnet.com/article/20150617/NEWS/150619683 I’ve just read about this guy and the massive pissed offness that he caused.

I quote The media continues to promote hate and racial stereotypes and there’s a continuation of the idea that there is such a thing as race, he said. But there is no scientific basis for it.

Read it and substitute race for gender, black for female.
The black community wouldn’t stand for it yet us women are expected to role over.

Darwin was not only racist but also sexist.

www.icr.org/article/darwins-teaching-womens-inferiority/

Women's inferiority—a fact taken for granted by most scientists in the 1800s—was a major proof of evolution by natural selection. Gould claims that there were actually "few egalitarian scientists" at this time. Almost all believed that "Negroes and women" were intellectually inferior. These scientists were not repeating prejudices without extensive work and thought; they were attempting to verify this major plank in evolutionary theory by trying to prove, scientifically, that women were inferior.

Those are my italics and my bold.

this is the first time I have felt as if I was an exclusionist rather than an inclusionist

Yes me too, it’s an uncomfortable feeling. I also think that a lot of the people who proclaiming we’re bigots don’t really follow it all themselves - but they know what the acceptable conclusion is so they proclaim that as loudly as possible to make it clear they’re in the right camp.

I was in that position myself for a while (although I never thought trans women were literally women). There was a real sense of “well okay I can’t explain how this works, but I’m sure someone somewhere can, so why let my limited understanding hold up what I’m told is a civil rights movement fighting bigots?”

“As I said in my post you responded to, but deliberately left out, the discussion that transwomen are women and the ''male brain/female brain' thing' are separate issues.”

I don’t understand why they are separate things. If it could be shown that there are significant differences between male and female brains, then the “born in the wrong body” thing would make sense, and would go a long way towards showing that transwomen actually are women.

Saying transwomen are women is a bit like saying

There is no poverty and no wealth
There is no racial discrimination, we are all humans
Sexism doesn't exist; in an equal society we all have choices
Violence and warfare is a human activity and is part of being human
Religious discrimination doesn't exist

Basically, it's anarchy.