“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

I’ve tried this before-but please can someone explain the thinking behind this to me. I am naive enough to think that there must be some- is it the “male brain/female brain” thing? And where did it come from? Where did it start?

Please-no abuse from either “side”. Just statements of fact. With links to evidence if possible.

This question is such a massive sticking point and I do think it holds discussion back. You can still talk about the absurdity of having a person who looks like a man and has a penis being housed in a female jail, taking a place in a female refuge, performing smear tests etc.

Discussion would eventually come back to the question of "well, can any transwomen use these spaces?" and that is the time to define what is 'woman enough'. Perhaps I'm naive in assuming that this central question can be laid aside though.

I wonder whether any studies are being undertaken (or have been undertaken?) following infant/child/teenage/adult brain development to determine when these purported differences in structure arise. There are clearly huge ethical implications of such a study but it would be interesting. In any case, if such a study is undertaken I expect we won't see any results for many years.

NotTerfnorCis

This is a good article in response to Serano:

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">https://medium.com/<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">@LogicalMarcuss*<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026" target="_blank">/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026

That article by Logical Marcus is excellent - nigh on novel length, but excellent nonetheless! That guy is also an excellent follow on Twitter because he comes at opposing gender ideology from outside a feminist framework and outside a right wing/religious framework. I learn a lot from his tweets.

I have bookmarked that article by Logical Marcus because I know I'll need to refer back to it from time to time.

It was brilliant to read.

That is a great article and has really made me think about the really hurtful nature of the TRA argument that trans women are women because some women don’t have periods or can’t have children.

What they are essentially saying in that infertility makes you less of a woman, even though your chromosomes say otherwise.

No, infertile women are still women. Because they were born women. They know it and we know it. They shouldn’t be used as a shoe horn to open up the catagory of women to men.

Sorry, I meant that they are essentially equating infertile women with people who never had the capability to reproduce.

Barracker - was that original? I love it! :) :) :) :)

Well yes as per the LM saying that when it comes to pregnancy, there is literally no difference between a person with balls and a cock, and a person with a fully functioning female reproductive system who is fertile, but who is at a time of the month that she won't get pregnant.

Right.

Years ago (15 years at least) I was doing what was then known as Biological Psychology degree (now known as Neuro Psychology) and there certainly was some research that androgen exposure in the womb does affect sexual behaviour.

So female rats exposed to androgens in the womb will display lordosis (humping) if they have a lot of testosterone and the development of their genitals can be adversely affected - it permanently masculinises the females.

Not sure this is the exact research but something similar here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11752687

Notice that any changes in the male rats (smaller body weight) were eliminated by the time they were weaned.

This is an example of the type of work that has been going on for years around hormonal exposure in the womb and it's effect on sexuality and 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviour.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350266/

I guess where I come from with this is that androgens do seem to make males more violent/aggressive ('masculine') and therefore that is classed as male behaviour, so lower levels of testosterone may well make a male less 'masculine' in comparison to the average female. BUT that doesn't make them female but just lower down the sliding scale of masculinity, and so it goes right back to the gender roles that are a powerful force in this.

Yes, a male may have had lower testosterone and therefore naturally is less 'masculine,' so he may feel like he does not fit into the strict societal male roles and develop gender dysphoria as a result, but he is not a female. So this is a societal and cultural issue rather than anything else - we have become more pink and blue as capitalism has marched on. In other areas of the world, e.g. Iran, it is religion setting the strict roles for men and women, and they too have high levels of trans people.

I understand TRAs say they feel like a women, but what I hear is you don't feel like a man.

I guess where I come from with this is that androgens do seem to make males more violent/aggressive ('masculine') and therefore that is classed as male behaviour, so lower levels of testosterone may well make a male less 'masculine' in comparison to the average female

But that only accounts for aggression does it not? Not liking ballet and pink rather than trucks and football?

The thing that I really don’t get is why being a trans woman isn’t good enough for them. Why do they need to be classified as a woman? Surely being a trans woman is not a bad thing. Surely being a trans woman is a good thing and something to be proud of and embrace because it is what you are. It should be celebrated.

So what they TRAs are suggesting is that being a trans woman is lesser than being a woman. Surely this is all about an inferiority complex. Trans women are different to women. They have a different set of issues and concerns to women. That doesn’t make then different or lesser.

It is sad that TRAs cannot celebrate or embrace their trans identity as being equally good as being a woman, just a bit different.

I think the pink comes in at the cultural level, yes

There is evidence of sex based play however, small standard deviations. It's hard to say exactly where this comes from, but as some of that research shows there are a lot of studies that have looked at the play behaviour of girls who have had high androgen exposure in the womb and they have higher levels of 'masculine' play

I think the two interact, its the standard response. I'm not blank slate but I'm not biological determinism either.

The thing that I really don’t get is why being a trans woman isn’t good enough for them. Why do they need to be classified as a woman? Surely being a trans woman is not a bad thing. Surely being a trans woman is a good thing and something to be proud of and embrace because it is what you are. It should be celebrated

It used to be exactly good enough. Sure, individuals got upset if they were referred to as 'he', but most people played along because we understood it was about politeness and suchlike and not a demand that we them as women.

There is evidence of sex based play however, small standard deviations. It's hard to say exactly where this comes from, but as some of that research shows there are a lot of studies that have looked at the play behaviour of girls who have had high androgen exposure in the womb and they have higher levels of 'masculine' play

I get this, if masculinity is associated with higher levels of aggression and related behaviours, but other than this it is awfully hard to see where nature stops and nurture/culture begin.

but other than this it is awfully hard to see where nature stops and nurture/culture begin.

And isn't that the problem with this debate - we won't ever all agree because there is no final definitive answer on that.

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both.

I have faith that we will get to a point where we will have to question the notion of GRA but I think it will probably take a big event like the Olympics where females are sidelined to get there.

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both

But can we not accept it is psychological? It's a mistake, a pathology, something that needs treating? Something rather like other dysmorphias like anorexia or the one where people are convinced that limbs are not theirs?

And ironically we will never ever get to the answers if science has to recognise the GRA

No more male - female differentiators will be reliable

But why does it matter whether a person is masculine or feminine? Why does anyone define themselves by whether they conform to "male" traits or "female" ones? Why define or categorise anyone by their empathy or their level of violence or their liking of pink/blue?

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that they are male or female, biologically, physically, hormonally, in every way.

The most "feminine" man is still a man, with male bone structure, heart muscle, prostate gland, penis. The most "masculine" woman is still a woman, with periods, breasts, ovaries and the capacity to bear a child.

Do we have segregated toilets for people who like pink? Or enjoy tinkering with car engines? Of course we don't, to suggest such a thing would be ridiculous.

But there is no evidence the 'feeling' is purely psychological

Feelings can be generated external stimuli or for biological reason

Hunger for example can be biologically true or psychologically generated by external stimuli/conditioning

I'm not saying the 'feeling' that trans people describe is one or the other, just that we don't know

The most "feminine" man is still a man, with male bone structure, heart muscle, prostate gland, penis. The most "masculine" woman is still a woman, with periods, breasts, ovaries and the capacity to bear a child.

I agree with this totally. I guess I was just trying to answer the OP as to how this transwoman are women narrative gets going and it may start with a slight deviation from standard male hormones, which do affect behaviour and therefore do affect how they fit into the aceepted male behaviours / stereotypes

Did anyone see the bbc tv programme of yet another transman having a baby - he ? Looked feminine and acknowledged this, had not commenced any medical treatment to become more malelike and was pregnant, however if anyone would refer to him as a mother this would have a negative affect on their mental health - his main concern was the proper use of pronouns - its crazy - we are being brow beaten into colluding with some seriously narcissistic / controlling behaviour for fear of being labelled transphobic

You need a new thread, Bert.

'If you believe transwomen are women, tell me why. Please only post if you think they are.'

You really need the people who believe it to be the ones who answer attempting to explain.

Among themselves, without us challenging them, they may come up with something better than 'because I said so' or 'because they want to be' or because they feel like they are.

To be fair, this sight is so gender critical (good) that it's easy for such people to cry 'transphobes' and run away. If we didn't all pile in to challenge, we/they may learn more the thinness of their argument will become even more apparent.

do men and women smell different
I'm pondering pheromones

I was told that adult males rarely get nits for some reason - is that a myth? Does someone know if it's true? Does someone know if transwomen or transmen get nits so we can compare?

I am a TERF but I do want to listen to trans people and too many of them describe this 'feeling' to dismiss it as nothing so the above is attempt to try and make sense of that feeling and look at the research we do have - it cannot just come from nowhere IMO - but whether it is biological or cultural, we just don't know - but more likely an interaction of both

It's a mistake to assume that gender dysphoria is a single, definable condition. Actually there are a whole lot of different mental health conditions being subsumed under the banner of 'trans'. For instance, men and women transition for very different reasons, and even among men, gender dysphoria has different aetiologies.

The main ones for men are Blanchard's homosexual/non homosexual typology, whereby homosexual trans males are those who felt feminine/different from other boys from a very young age, and heterosexual/bisexual trans-identified men are actualising a sexual fetish called autogynophilia, where they get aroused by cross-dressing and thinking of themselves a 'woman'. This typology is very well documented clinically (and on the countless 'sissy' porn sites which cater to autogynophiles ).

The recent upsurge in teenage girls and young women identifying as trans (whereas female transitioners were very rare up until about a decade ago) seems to fit within a pattern of other body dysmorphic conditions that predominately affect young females, like anorexia. This latest manifestation appears to be driven by a reaction to cultural lesbophobia and misogyny, as well as drawing in lots of young women who have Autism Spectrum Disorders. There's a strong social contagion aspect to it too, with multiple girls within one peer group sometimes suddenly deciding they are 'trans'.

The mystical idea that people can have feminine brains/souls in male bodies and vice versa is appealingly simple and goes right back to the 19th century idea of 'inverts' (which was the medical 'explanation' then for homosexuality), but the reality is a lot more complex.

This article by two sexologists gives a good overview. I have some disagreements with the way they ignore the political and cultural context of 'gender' and treat it purely as a medical issue, but it does provide a useful summary of what the clinical data reveal:

Gender Dysphoria is Not One Thing

PocketCoffeeEspresso I heard that about nits too. I do believe it to be true as when DS, DD and myself were absolutely riddled with them, DH was left untouched.