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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“Transwomen are women”

265 replies

BertrandRussell · 14/01/2018 10:55

I’ve tried this before-but please can someone explain the thinking behind this to me. I am naive enough to think that there must be some- is it the “male brain/female brain” thing? And where did it come from? Where did it start?

Please-no abuse from either “side”. Just statements of fact. With links to evidence if possible.

OP posts:
MadamMinacious · 14/01/2018 12:32

Stichglitched could you link please (I tried to find it but totally failed).

NotTerfNorCis · 14/01/2018 12:33

There is some research out there that seems to show transwomen have some more typically 'female' brain architecture, but not being a scientist/medic I don't know how legit it is.

stitchglitched · 14/01/2018 12:35

I will try to link, hope this works.

mobile.twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

ATeardropExplodes · 14/01/2018 12:36

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

ATeardropExplodes · 14/01/2018 12:38

snap!

ATeardropExplodes · 14/01/2018 12:38

There is some research out there that seems to show transwomen have some more typically 'female' brain architecture, but not being a scientist/medic I don't know how legit it is.

Is there? I've been asking for weeks for some research into this so I'm glad it is finally here. Can you post the link?

Elendon · 14/01/2018 12:39

I'm posting this link as I think it's important to the current discussion.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-42652947

This quote makes no sense.

^Dr Liadh Timmins, who specialises in sexual orientation and gender identity at King's College London, describes the comments as "transphobic".

"Sexual attraction is a response to stimuli - that can be based on any number of things for example waist to hip ratio, certain behaviours, or breast size," Dr Timmins says.

"If you have a trans woman who transitions very early on, she may be physically identical to a cis woman at a surface level."^

NannyOggsKnickers · 14/01/2018 12:41

Good, point Donkey. Maybe it would be easier to hammer this out properly if TRAs would engage fully. There might even be a way to find a peaceful coexistence.

It should be obvious to anyone that allowing biologically male people (remember that biology is more than genitals) to take up spaces for women. Spaces in sport, politics, STEM sectors etc, where women are historically disadvantaged and under represented, should be fairly obviously not the right thing to do. Women already compete, and still lose out, to men. Why should we make that competition more inequitable by adding the extra challenge of competing against women who used to be men?

And I get that most trans women live generally quite lives in their new identity asa woman. And they take on most of the roles of a woman. I I don’t begrudge them that. They deserve to live in freedom and safety, unharassed and not discriminated against.

I bet that most of them would confess that they haven’t the first clue about the biological difficulties of being a woman even though they are sympathetic.

And also the reason why trans women can never represent women’s issues in the same way that biological women can. The same as I would not be an acceptable representative for BME communities, or Muslim communities. I am sympathetic to issues suffered in those communities but I have no first hand experience.

ATeardropExplodes · 14/01/2018 12:42

'hormonal sweet spots'? Jaysus.

LineysRunt · 14/01/2018 12:42

That Robin Green tweet is fascinating: 'I see them as real women except for relationship purposes'.

Is that an 'allowed' position for trans-allies to have, or was he crucified for that?

Elendon · 14/01/2018 12:42

The words in that quote that disturb me the most is at a surface level

So being a woman, is all about presentation and looks?

NotTerfNorCis · 14/01/2018 12:43

This research for instance: www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/. Interestingly, from the tiny number of people surveyed it shows stronger proof for TIFs than TIMs. 'The female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain [...] in each [transwoman's] brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females'. But we also know that brain development is flexible and shaped by experience, and that there is also such a thing as 'gay and straight brains'.

Gileswithachainsaw · 14/01/2018 12:45

If any of the research categorically showed that there are birth differences between male and female brains where the results aren't merely a product of socialization and social construction then why is a brain scan not part of the diagnosis.

And why would results not be documented in a way which broadens the bandwidth of being male.

And why would the likes of that Alex and Danielle Muscato be happy with making very little effort to transition besides clothing.

We all need to get over the romanticized idea of struggling people binding breasts and attempting suicide unable to look at their penis and realise that people now are openly taking the piss right in front of our eyes confident in the brainwashing and recruitment of their allies.

Most of which are young and naive and probably have have no idea what it really means.

If people were so sure of it all then research into detransitioners wouldn't have been actively shut down.

It is so scary how people are so accepting of what people they don't even know are telling them that they can't even even see that if there was such overwhelming evidence they woukd have facts and logic and statistics to back it up and would not be frightened of such a debate .

Instead women are no platformed

I cannot believe how far it has gone already. And im sacred as to what has to happen before people take women And stop and think.. .

We would all fail an exam in school if we reported facts so so wrong and couldn't back up our theories.

It's not good enough for kids then writing laws for adult populations to live by is absolute insanity

Gileswithachainsaw · 14/01/2018 12:46

Cross posts sorry

Bejazzled · 14/01/2018 12:47

See, I don't agree that trans-identified males are performing the feminine gender role, which is why I never refer to them as 'gender non-conforming'. Most are very obviously enacting a male fantasy of what womanhood is, which is all about clothes, make-up and sexual objectification. They have zero interest in appropriating the non-sexualised aspects of the feminine gender role: child care, elder care, domestic shit work, subordinating one's own needs and desires to those of others.

100% agree with you

Elendon · 14/01/2018 12:48

I object to the term 'gay and straight brains'

It's homophobic.

bfgdreamtree · 14/01/2018 12:51

There is some research out there that seems to show transwomen have some more typically 'female' brain architecture, but not being a scientist/medic I don't know how legit it is

There is no such thing as male or female brain architecture.

ChattyLion · 14/01/2018 12:53

Zero time for men (of whatever gender presentation) who tell me (a woman) who I have to consider a woman. Especially when I know they don’t really believe it themselves.

If I am being generous, maybe some of them haven’t thought it all through, it which case STFU. But other men plainly have just found a politically virtuous looking way of putting women down and makingnthem vulnerable and those men are loving it. Hence all their smug cheerleading for the encroachment on women’s spaces etc.

NotTerfNorCis · 14/01/2018 12:53

@Elendon Is that sarcasm? Can't tell, sorry. Confused

There's some 10-year-old research that shows gay people had brain structure more similar to the opposite sex than to their own.

Which begs the question, how can we tell the brain difference between for example a gay man and a transwoman who is attracted to men?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7456588.stm

www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains-of-gay/

www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology

SherlocksTripleLock · 14/01/2018 13:04

I'm wondering, how many heterosexual male TRAs are attracted to and would consider dating or have intimate relationships with transwomen?

This is a question they should be bombarded with and an answer to which the should be hounded for.

Speaks volumes really.

Elendon · 14/01/2018 13:09

It's not sarcasm. It's homophobic.

And you are deliberately hijacking this thread. If you wish you start a thread regarding the differences between brains. Do so.

BertrandRussell · 14/01/2018 13:10

Really? It anyone could show a difference between male and female brains wouldn’t we be nearly there?

OP posts:
53rdWay · 14/01/2018 13:12

I have also been trying to understand the thinking behind this claim. As a general principle, if I'm disagreeing with someone I would always want to make sure that the thought process behind their statements is what I think it is. (And it was realising that I was failing at this with the gender-critical feminist approach that set me off on the route to peak trans.)

It is difficult to follow with this one though because it seems that often, it's a statement of affirmation rather than logical conclusion of an argument. It's saying "I believe trans women feel how they say they feel, and I am willing to expand my own social category of 'women' to include them." Opposition to this is perceived as a) refusing to believe them, and b) unfairly refusing access to that social category. So when they hear "but trans women can't be women," they hear it in the sense of "but non-white people can't be British" or "but a woman who's been married to a man can't be a lesbian" - it's both bigotry and refusing to accept the validity of someone's feelings in favour of your external perceptions.

As for why feelings get a higher status than biology on this one I'm less clear. As best I understand it, the people who believe that trans women literally are women (rather than just, should be included in the same social category as biological women) would view it in the same way as intersex conditions. So, if someone was born with CAIS (was biologically XY but developed as female) and did not discover this until puberty, it would be cruel to say "but you can't be a girl, despite your female body and your upbringing as female and your belief that you are female - your chromosomes say no." For a trans woman, the physical body & upbringing as well as the chromosomes might be male, but she has the same belief as the intersex woman that she genuinely is a woman and therefore it would be the same level of cruelty to disagree with her. Throw in a heavy dose of beliefs that 'biology is complicated, sex is on a spectrum, nobody knows what their chromosomes are anyway'* and bingo, trans women are women?

For this to hold up it seems to me that you do have to accept gender identity as some kind of inevitable, internal state, and at that point I don't follow. I also don't follow why this same logic wouldn't apply to e.g. Rachel Dolezal as well as Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. But as far as I can follow it, this is what underlies it.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 14/01/2018 13:14

Liney

R U on twitter? try challenging him on it. Don't think he likes being called a TERF

53rdWay · 14/01/2018 13:15

sorry, that should be 'nobody knows what their own chromosomes are', which I think is woefully naive about biological reproduction but is something I've heard the 'trans women are women' arguers say.