“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

I’ve tried this before-but please can someone explain the thinking behind this to me. I am naive enough to think that there must be some- is it the “male brain/female brain” thing? And where did it come from? Where did it start?

Please-no abuse from either “side”. Just statements of fact. With links to evidence if possible.

Excellent summary DonkeySkin.

I do wish people would understand that there are different reasons for transitioning.

All of which are either harmful to women or related to gender roles which are harmful to women and men.

It's an an incredibly negative ideology, which ever way you look at it. Which is being marketed as aspirational/progressive/positive.

Except when the goalposts are are flipped and it's difficult, distressing, devastating, of course.

A nit test sounds promising though.

nits

men have shorter hair
and may be less inclined to rub up against others so much (affection)

Women have a lot more hair and possibly more physical contact including with kids & other people's kids (due to socialised roles)

Anecdotally - when I was a late teen, I got lice, and so did the boys I was friends with including my boyfriend. We were grunge types and the boys all had long hair, my boyfriend had waist length hair

I've also heard that mosquitos bite women more - due to our skin being "less tough" and our blood being "sweeter" - how much of this is cobblers I have no idea.

We could be more sensitive to bites, react more? We have a keener sense of smell, do we feel itches more?
With lice, do we feel more disgust? Is it harder to get rid of? Many men would just cut their hair dead short wouldn't they, it's probably more difficult for us to manage.

Dunno.

Why do men take 15 hours to take a shit? That's an as yet unresolved sex difference. I suggested to DH it was because he had "poorly developed, weak internal muscles" just to switch it up from always being women who are framed as weak, the exception. He conceded this may be true based on the whole pushing a baby out capability thing.

There are lots of men who have long hair and lots of women who have short hair.

I've also heard that mosquitos bite women more - due to our skin being "less tough" and our blood being "sweeter" - how much of this is cobblers I have no idea.

This one I think is cobblers - DS1 (child) is the mosquito magnet in our house - if he's in the room, no-one else need fear being bitten. The rest of us get bitten at roughly the same rate - maybe DP a bit more, or maybe he just whinges more.

I've thought before now about the genetic conditions that affect only one biological sex. Genetics don't seem to be confused about which is which.

Biomedical research has demonstrated biological differences between females and males in virtually every organ and system of the body. Research has also revealed the genetic and molecular basis of a number of gender-based differences in health and disease, some of which are related to genotype — XX in the female and XY in the male.

These findings suggest that there are multiple differences in the basic cellular biochemistry of males and females that can affect an individual's health. Many of these differences do not arise from differences in the hormonal regime to which males and females are exposed, but are a direct result of the genetic differences between the two sexes.

Further studies on the relative roles of the sex chromosome genes is likely to illuminate the reasons for expression of some diseases within and between the sexes. Understanding the bases of these gender-based differences is also important for the development of new approaches to disease prevention, diagnosis, and treatment.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22239/

Note the total confusion over the word 'gender' in that: diseases do NOT manifest more or less depending on the length of your hair, your clothing choices and the height of your heels.

The simple question is:

The kitchen bin is full and bin emptying in your household is your job.
Do you:
a) empty the bin when you notice it is full.
b) say 'I'll empty the bin after I've watched this/read this/finished this game/had a 20 minute shit', and then fail too empty it until two days later when the bin is overflowing and your partner 'nags' you to do it?

Are we seriously discussing whether men get nits or males get bitten more by mosquitoes?

All responses are anecdotal and in no way is this relevant to 'transwomen are women'.

FGS!

Seriously? No. Didn't realise we had to be serious at all times.

It is just the way lots of threads go, Elendon.

Nothing wrong with a bit of chit-chat alongside the more serious issues, I rather like it.

I think there could be some biological factors at work with "old fashioned" dysphoric transexuals. But, bear in mind that "third sexes/two spirit people/whatever the trans movement fancies appropriating from other cultures on a whim" are more prevalent in societies which have rigid gender roles (in the old school social sciences/feminist theory sense of "gender" as socially sanctioned, culturally specific roles deemed appropriate to one biological sex or the other). This suggests to me that a major part of the explanation is cultural/social.

I think the process goes like this in those who aren't dysphoric: you have a feeling you don't quite fit. This may be partly nurture (your parents told you you couldn't play with toy cars and wanted to) but it's possible that there is also some biologically underpinning factor at play too (which in and of itself still wouldn't settle the "innately trans" debate, since we know how plastic the brain is during infancy, childhood and right through the teen years). However, how you personally conceptualise this feeling is largely culturally determined. Hence those of us who were tomboys in the 70s saw ourselves as tomboys - biological females who wanted to adopt the role of being a boy because what was on offer to us as girls sucked. Today's girls who like "boy" things instead conceptualize themselves as transgender/agender/non-binary. No actual difference in the experience, just a difference in how we frame the experience (driven by the wider culture in which we seek for explanations).

Those who are dysphoric - again, I wonder how much of a role culture plays in enabling/mitigating against one's own personal ability to come to terms with one's sexed body, or alternatively to decide that only significant modifications to one's body will alleviate the feelings of dysphoria.

Erm OK

Didn't realise that there was an agenda for this thread. Are we "time boxing" it too?

Jesus.

Do you want posters who have gone off topic to leave the thread and let the grown-ups talk, or just shut the fuck up?

So rude.

I didn't tell anyone to shut the fuck up. How dare you insinuate I did @UpaBitLate

I'm not asking everyone to be serious. Obviously collecting money on a gofundme site to launch a legal challenge against the Labour Party regarding AWS is serious. I'm happy to lighten the mood.

But for goodness sake, nits and mosquitoes?

My ex was a shit of the highest order and never got nits, nor did he ever clear his children of nits, that was my job, apparently. Should I conclude that abusive men never have nits?

This is a quote from one of the comments on the donation page, by C Rose - if you're here and you read this C Rose my heart went out to you, and this is too important evidence to see it disappear off that page. This is exactly, in a nut shell, why transwomen are not women.

' I first became aware of trans rights activists in 2015. I have a collection of rare medical conditions, my biology of xx chromosomes means that women are affected differently to xy people. In fact trans indenting males with the condition are contraindicated from accessing female hormones with this condition. Trans rights activists in 2015, attacked a six thousand people Facebook group for women only, with these rare medical conditions. We are incredibly socially isolated due to our health, we are also isolated due to the fact the NHS lets us down. Our specific needs are based on our biology. We came together to discuss our condition and TRAs tried to take that away from us. They tried to dictate that we can't talk about periods, pregnancy, endometriosis, Polycystic ovaries, menopause etc, which are hugely impacting on our health. They accused us of killing trans people, they terrorised us for simply talking in a fb group. The group had to go secret, blocking others from support. They left us scared and isolated. Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (PoTS) is one condition, it is a condition with one of the highest chances of suicide (PoTSUK medical research citation), we are a vulnerable group. The national neurology hospital states stress be it physical or emotional makes us physically ill. The TRAs made us ill, suicidal and isolated attacking us for simply talking about our health.'

Glittery, that's beyond awful for that poor woman. To have a serious health condition, to be socially isolated as a result, and then to have men troll your only source of online support in a fit of narcissistic rage!

I read that thinking

You would never find women intentionally surfing the net, looking for other vulnerable women purely to shut them down and prevent them getting support because their existence is politically unsuited to your views.

You would never find women organising to prevent other women talking about issues that don't personally affect them. Women manage infertility as one massive example without trying to silence and prevent other women talking about children as 'too triggering' for them.

People who would do this are not 'women' and are making it clear they see no value of any kind in 'other women'. It's not a group they identify with and wish to join or support.

The feeling i get is that there is a minority who feed off the melodrama of ‘poor me, look at poor me! You’re not looking at me!!!’ And rather than focus on themselves as individuals (and get on with their day to day boring lives) see it as a whole group lifestyle thing that has to be played out in public.

Bullying, shouting down and aggression is part of this and, I have to say, a rather male attribute?

to C Rose.

You would never find women intentionally surfing the net, looking for other vulnerable women purely to shut them down and prevent them getting support because their existence is politically unsuited to your views.

Exactly Glittery Agree with you 100%.

TRAs ought to hang their heads in shame at this appalling hijacking of women's health issues; but they wont of course, why should they? Heaven forfend they are slighted in any way.

It's appalling that women's support groups are being shut down to pander to a very tiny minority of the population

Glitterypinksoap

Thank you for putting that post from C Rose.

And you're quite right. Women wouldn't dream of persecuting other women because they felt excluded from their fucking illness.

Neither would most men.

Just this particular brand of raging, narcissistic, misogynistic bastards.

It's quite true that there is no such thing as peak trans. Because right when you thought it couldn't get any sicker, it does.

And they have the weight of our government behind them.

I've been on this planet for decades and, I have to say, I have never been prouder of being a woman.

A living, breathing, feminist woman.

And yes, it is exclusionary. Too bloody right it is.

Ffs.

to C Rose.

It fills me with impotent fury that MEN behave like this and some WOMEN stick up for them.

@Glitterypinksoap

I've sent you a PM.

Me too LangCleg

But I am always encouraged and heartened by the number of women who say they used to support it, as Libfems, but they no longer do.

They are always very humble about how the scales fell, and how they could have been so blind.

Well thats bollocks as I personally know a couple where one is trans and they deffo have a 'full relationship '