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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU GoFundMe addiction

999 replies

DistaffSide · 13/01/2018 12:29

I've recently become addicted to a Gofundme campaign. Every time I press refresh the total raised has jumped up and I don't seem to be able to stop.

I'm trying to stay within Mumsnet rules here, so obviously I can't link or promote it.

Does anyone else have this enjoyable problem?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Thegirlinthefireplace · 18/01/2018 10:12

I agree Datun, I've convinced a few friends in real life who were simply unaware.

However, the people with the voices that can be heard by the most people aren't onside (for whatever reason)

Glitterypinksoap · 18/01/2018 10:13

There is a point. If this legal battle doesn't make head-up-bum-in-ivory-tower politicians stop and think, it will throw daylight and discussion on this mess. That's all that is needed. The reason it has worked so well so far is because the majority of it was done very quietly out of sight of the general public - and TRA groups quite frankly state this was an intentional strategy. Daylight is what they really don't like, hence the wittering about it's 'transphobic' to use your legal rights, or for newspapers to write articles. I've seen one well known TRA public figure actually state that just sharing their Tweets (that the general public would instantly say WTAF to) was transphobic, presumably because they realised how bad it made them look.

The government tried ignoring large swathes of the general public and shaming them as bigots over concerns with immigration - whether justified or not - and got slammed in the face with Brexit. Liberal left America ignored voters' concerns and refused to talk with them and got Trump. You'd think they'd have started to catch on by now, but what really matters here is just plain getting this into the public eye, giving the average person the whole, unspun, unedited picture and letting them make an informed decision for themselves.

Corbyn is standing behind a homophobic agenda that erases and removes legal and civil rights from 51% of the population. It doesn't matter how he tries to spin it, those are the facts.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 18/01/2018 10:13

I think we need to keep "woman" for ourselves as this is what all our hard won rights and protections are attached to.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 18/01/2018 10:14

Otherwise we're starting from scratch with those rights and protections

Glitterypinksoap · 18/01/2018 10:20

And as usual Datun says it better, with far greater clarity Grin

I agree, I have reached a point of feeling sad but determined that 'woman' is no longer a word that any male born person can appropriate. Not even the really lovely, vulnerable, deserving ones with the GRCs. I am far less willing to use pronouns inaccurately where once I wouldn't have dreamed of being so rude to someone as to use one they hadn't chosen.

As many have pointed out on these threads the social inclusion those people have had will end because of the crowd of TRAs aggressively pushing that inclusion to breaking point and beyond with an MRA agenda. They have used those people as their human shield to get this far and when this fad passes and most of them have grown out of it, it will be those people still suffering the consequences. It's one of the main reasons this whole fuckwittery makes me so very angry.

BeyondWW · 18/01/2018 10:20

I agree thegirl, the problem is though that the legislation saying "legal" women are women already exists. I think the aim for now should be to stop the "self identifying" crap and go from there. Unfortunately - for now - the "legal woman" fight has already been lost.

Ginger, I'd guess that the "bio women" rather than being illegal, also contains females who are "legally" men Grin

Glitterypinksoap · 18/01/2018 10:25

Ginger, I'd guess that the "bio women" rather than being illegal, also contains females who are "legally" men

Another key point. The wittering about transphobia neatly ignores that gender critical women gladly include transmen in the protections and exemptions for biological women.

The utter invisibility of transmen to the TRA community says it all.

LangCleg · 18/01/2018 10:33

Thegirlinthefireplace good point. If the GRA is amended then this legal battle could be won - at great expense - and Labour forced to only allow people who are legally women on shortlists - only for the sands to shift and for that to then include Self-ID under new laws.

On a (probably over-optimistic) positive note - the Maria Miller report on transgender equality recommended both moving to self-ID and amending the Equality Act to remove single sex exemptions. But, campaigning and reporting has had some effect. The self-ID part has been delayed and ministers are now actually writing official letters to campaigners to say that that there is no longer any intention to amend the Equality Act.

It might seem tiny, but this is progress.

Now, we've got to make enough noise to frighten the Labour horses as well as the Tory ones.

nauticant · 18/01/2018 10:36

I am beginning to wonder if a distinction of "biological" "legal" and "social" as raised on this or another thread, might be a way forward.

It's been said before but here's my take. The reason why "biological women" is a bad label to accept is that it allows "women" to become an umbrella term of which natal women (not keen on this usage but it's to avoid a muddle in this post) and transwomen are subsets. As soon as that's accepted, then transwomen can also declare themselves to be "biological women" because 1) they are "women" (in the new sense) and 2) they are biological beings. At the point when transwomen are "women" and also are "biological women", then natal women will need an extra qualifier. And so it will go, each new and more convoluted definition of women will become populated by transwomen and natal women will have to move on again.

The fundamental problem is that some transwomen's main interest is to invade women's domains wherever they might be. This comes from an internal rage that they can't have "what women have". As a consolation, they seek to ensure that natal women are never comfortable as women.

LangCleg · 18/01/2018 10:40

I think we should have woman, man and transsexual.

nauticant · 18/01/2018 10:41

Yep, that would make things a whole lot simpler and clearer.

Nineteenagain · 18/01/2018 10:42

LangCleg
I agree

BlindYeo · 18/01/2018 10:49

Agree with you glittery about immigration concerns etc and how concerns ignored and belittled can lead to major backlash.

I am with anyone who wants the word 'woman' to be maintained as only those who are biologically women. It's a great pity for 'genuine' transsexuals who have been trying to pass quietly under the radar all this time and for whom the GRA was enacted but the TRAs are ruining it for them. But women as a category need their protections to be maintained and the GRA is acting as the thin end of a dangerous wedge at the moment. Hope you are right LangCleg and the current delays are a good sign. I wonder how the Scottish consultation will go.

Redonionricedpotato · 18/01/2018 11:08

Nauticant, it's already happening. Caitlyn Jenner described himself as a 'biological woman' recently.

What scares me is that we end up with 'women' (transwomen) and 'cis women'.

BeyondWW · 18/01/2018 11:11

£16,145

Datun · 18/01/2018 11:12

I will never relinquish woman.

I don't care if it creates confusion.

If all women use it, the confusion won't be ours.

Redonionricedpotato · 18/01/2018 11:17

Has anyone tried tweeting the petition details at some rich people? Could do with a few big donations. I don't have twitter but maybe at some powerful women like J.K Rowling who would never openly admit to being a terf but I bet is sympathetic.

nauticant · 18/01/2018 11:29

That is depressing but expected Redonionricedpotato. I'm looking forward to some red faces a few years down the line but there'll be huge culling of social media posts and massive denial by the cheerleaders that they were ever drawn into this stuff.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/01/2018 11:35

Personally, I think the best option would be to repeal the GRA entirely, and add gender identity as a protected characteristic into the Equality act?

It seems to me that this would solve most problems on most sides?

BeyondWW · 18/01/2018 11:38

Yes. It is nonsense that you can legally change sex. Do whatever with your "gender presentation" but you remain the sex you were born. I'd happily fill in forms with sex=female gender=none.

Glitterypinksoap · 18/01/2018 11:51

It was interesting to see India Willoughby on CBB realising that people could be bludgeoned into politely using the politically correct words, and politely going along with the lie, but couldn't be made to believe in it.

AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads · 18/01/2018 12:02

I'd agree with a post I saw on this board a few days/weeks ago that suggested that gender non-conformity be a protected characteristic rather than gender identity, in a similar way to how being part of a subculture is protected as a result of work done by the Sophie Lancaster Foundation.

That would cover trans-men and trans-women, as well as non-binary and agender people, drag queens as well as any woman or man who 'presents' in a way not usually associated with their sex but who doesn't identify as trans or as any other gender and those of us who believe gender to be a load of shit.

Sex-segregated areas remain sex-segregated. If a male in a male space is attacked based on him being GNC this would be a hate crime.

Datun · 18/01/2018 12:20

*AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads^

I agree with that too. I can't see any flaws in it.

It's so perfect as it makes a distinction between gender and sex.

Instead of using gender to change laws on sex.

And although I am sure transactivists will object, from a strictly logical and fair point of view, it stands up to scrutiny.

You can't argue against it without seriously tooling up to go down the rabbit hole.

BarrackerBarmer · 18/01/2018 12:43

As a thought exercise, considering how things might go if women relinquished the word woman, is useful.

What is the real agenda of TRAs?

Do they merely want the word woman for themselves, and for everyone to be able to choose their own identity? Really?
What might happen, hypothetically, if they gained the word woman, and ALL women renounced it?
The word woman would then exclusively come to describe ONLY people with penises and gender beliefs. That would be its new association. It would be entirely disconnected from female biology, and from the billions of female humans.

Would that be acceptable to TRAs? If they got what they claim they want? The right to a word, and the right for everyone (even us?) to self define?

We can all see, in this thought exercise, what would actually happen.

Whatever women decided en masse to adopt as a new identity, based upon biology, would become the new target for takeover by TRAs.

It isn't the word they want. Or the recognition.

What they want is to be associated with adult human females and to use whatever word our language has to name them. They want us to be static and recognisable and NOT PERMITTED to identify away from or distinguish ourselves from them.

And although we can see where the thought exercise concludes, every time, with a cat and mouse pursuit, with the aim of pinning down females so they cannot escape, this has to remain a thought exercise.

Because the concept of female, woman, is so, so obvious and apparent, and REAL, that we cannot dissociate the word from the reality. Not on a large enough scale to make this happen. It has to remain a thought exercise.

TRAs want the word woman, because they know that the association with biology cannot ever be broken in practice. And safe in the knowledge that it is an unbreakable concept, they are free to make whatever claim they want, knowing people will always understand the real meaning. They are free to 'change the definition' because it creates a loophole of sorts on a small enough scale that it is endured and tolerated, despite it being a fiction.

If we try to cede 'woman' we will fail. I understand the temptation, but it won't work.

We need to strengthen the association between the word woman and biology. We can't weaken it, it's impossible. But we can bring that association out from the level where people understand it, an implicit, non cerebral acceptance, into our discourse where its reality is stated explicitly, over, and over and over.

Adult Human Female.

BarrackerBarmer · 18/01/2018 12:48

"careful what you wish for"

we listened when you told us
that this word was yours to claim
that penis could be female
and we now should share our name
but we all felt that you deserved
the spirit and the letter
of this, the word you want to share
could we do even better?
so we had a little meeting
and there we all decided
that since you like the word so much
its meaning we've elided
we're giving you this little gift
the word that was our own
the label that you most desired
it's yours and yours alone!
make of this gift what you will
the word belongs to you
define it any way you like
as long as it is true
we'll start again with a new word
that won't tread on your toes
we'll make one up that works for us
it won't be what you chose
so you can all be women
and we'll be something new
that speaks to our reality
like woman speaks to you
what's that you say? you need to know
the word that is our choice?
I'd really love to tell you but
I've gone and lost my voice
we hope you're truly happy
with this levelling of the score
wait - are you fecking kidding us?
-you don't want it any more.