Ok so someone educate me about neo vaginas **Title edited by MNHQ at the OP's request**

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Because lot of people on twitter appear to think that women piss out of their vaginas.

So with that particular piece of 'advanced biology', what happens with a newly constructed vagina?

And er. maybe some will be disappointed with the plumbing?

Tut tut Maid, don’t you know they’re superior to natal vaginas in all those respects?

Hi all!
Datun - I did wonder over the continual use of the word prostrate - Oh bugger!! I know how to spell "prostate", so I've no idea where all those extra R's consistently came from. Not even pirates' prostates (Lots of 'Arrrrs')!

a post op adult, who claims 'better than ever' sexual function - Errm. No. I don't recall ever saying it was 'better than ever'. I did say it was very different. Maybe I've read your post wrong, but it seems that you took something I didn't say and ran with your own assumptions.

How can an adult who advocates the joys of surgery from a fully formed set of genitalia, even think of supporting something leading to such a loss in children? - Well - I'm not sure that is the case (not that I'm particularly skilled in the area of Urological Surgery). There are a number of techniques that can be used should the penile skin be insufficient. One case may be in the circumcised male - without extra work, the neo-vagina would be very short. Just to be clear - and to go back to what I originally said - "I'd rather leave it to medically qualified professional healthcare workers". That's very different to your accusation that my thinking would lead to any losses in children.

IcedCocoa - make a man, genitally speaking, out of a woman, genitally speaking, yes, that is how it seems - OMG - No! That's not what I meant at all. I'm really sorry if that's how it came across - not my intention at all. This can be the difficulty in text-based discussions. Sex it set at conception and is unalterable. Developmental things will happen during gestation and cells will become certain things. Male and Female fetuses will go down different paths from about week-8 - with the onset of fetal testosterone. Things will become one thing in males and another in females. I was certainly NOT insinuating that the entire vagina is some mal-formed penis - I'm really sorry you read it that way. A genetic male without sufficient testosterone during this critical period will end up with feminised external genitalia, while genetic females with abnormally high testosterone in the same period are born with external genitalia that are masculinised [Ref1]. It was this development - as a difference between male and female development that I was referring to. The cells that could have been labia in a genetic female actually become the scrotal sack in males. They are different - one is most certainly NOT a "derivation" of the other. Perhaps this video explains the different development better, and how the scrotum of boys forms needs to "close" the membrane (which separated in girls) in order to form the scrotal sack (hence the "seam"). Does that help?

My labia are not an opened up scrotum - Of course not! You never had a scrotum and I never had labia. What I have is skin that started out cosmetically the same as labia and it has been used to create something that looks once again like labia now.

BarrackerBarmer - easily recreated with some modifications and manipulations of flesh. - I know that's how a lot of the very vocal Trans see things. However, I hope don't come across like that - again, not my intention. Obviously, if someone were to have been born without a hand (say) and had one "reconstructed" - that would not an actual hand make! However, a "hand" is very, very different than something which has been used to horribly oppress, repress and vilify half the population!

thebewilderness -There is a popular myth that we are all female in the womb/uterus in spite of the fact that every cell is either xx or xy. - exactly. We all started out visually the same up to 7-8 weeks (see linked video above, 24sec). But that's all - visually. Every cell of a fetus, baby and adult screams "male" or "female".

There is a sad belief among some trans identified males that if they have the male organs removed they will be left with female organs. - This is quite true. However, this is more to do with capacity to understand, mental awareness and expectations. I have the consent forms and pre-surgery information from both Charing Cross hospital and Brighton hospital. I can assure you that the medical profession makes it very (burtally??) clear what Trans are getting from surgery. If Trans wish to believe anything otherwise, so be it, but I'd refer them to their signed "consent form" (I have mine here).

Geronimoleapinglizards - would you like to actually be female? - Yes. Of course. Can I refer to my earlier post on Page 6 of this thread: "I don't want to be Trans - it's horrible. Those idiots who are just playing dress-up have no idea what acute Gender Dysphoria is actually like. It's horrific. It's nothing to be "proud" of." Would a blind person wish to be sighted? Would a disabled person wish to be able-bodied? Thing is - those with fetishes for blindfolds or wheelchairs don't (generally) endanger, invade or invalidate half the population!!
I accept my Transition as being the best I'll be able to have. I'm realistic about it and I get on with my life. I do OK at work, in social situations and with family, etc. Upon transitioning, you accept the lot (well those with genuine Transsexualism, do). You don't get to "pick and choose" aspects of Womanhood (this is where I have major issues with those playing dress-up or undergoing "partial-transition" because they want boobs, but still want to wank off). There's nothing inherently exciting about being a woman (which is why I really don't get the male fetishisation of it). To be honest, lots of it are a right pain in the arse - and I only have a small part of it. But yes - I'd prefer to be gentically female; an adult woman - with all that it entails. It's wanting to be female in every way possible - not just "cherry picking" the "best" bits. Would I have wanted to be pregnant/give birth? Yes. Breast feed my own baby? Yes. Do I like sexual harassment/assault? Of course not! Do I receive it (as a woman would - not as trans)? Yes..............

Right - it soon gets round to Sunday night and I need to get things sorted for a week away next week. Keep safe everyone.

Ref:
[1] "Cordelia Fine - Delusions of Gender, Ch9-The 'fetal' fork".

If Trans wish to believe anything otherwise, so be it, but I'd refer them to their signed "consent form" (I have mine here).

How nice for you. Would that we could dismiss the lies our children are being told so easily.

aishana, you say that your former patient should be considered female, apart from the fact that they were sadly dying from a condition that mainly affects males?

I think a gynaecologist, amongst many other clinicians, would have no problem at all visually identifying a male pelvis from a female pelvis.

Sex based differentials in health, exist at every step of the patient journey (to be NHSy about it): disease aetiology, disease onset, progression, therapeutic regimen etc. From a "gender" point of view, behavioural differences between men and women are known in how they access healthcare; the manner in how clinicians treat those patients; how drugs are prescribed, insurance policies etc. Because of this, research into how trans people access healthcare, not just for gender services, is of course important. But as you are speaking from clinical experience, I don't see why you would view a post-op patient as female because their genital surgery and reconstruction is of a high standard.

Hi Rachel - thank you for your reply.

I tried to be clear in my post that I was talking about how the words and explanations sounded to me, within the longer historical context of how women's bodies have been viewed in a patriarchal society.

Men and women were not viewed as incommensurately different prior to the modern period, they were viewed as alike, with all the same bits, but arranged differently, with men being the 'perfect' form along a scale of perfection (thus women were lesser; this meshed with Christian views which saw women as subordinate).

So when you (or any of your cited sources) talk about fetal development being the same (up to a certain point) or labia skin being cosmetically the same as a scrotum (apart from labia being open and scrotum closed up), these are the historical ideas I find invoked. It doesn't matter if you mean this (and I was clear that I did not think this was your intention), the bio-medical/pharmaceutical model today, that you can 'create' the other sex by arranging the components differently, is resonant for me of this pre-modern belief.

It is not about me not understanding the science, so no amount of explaining in basic terms will help. It is about what your explanation, however intended, brings to my mind in a longer historical and cultural context. That is a different thing.

Thank you Rachel for taking the time to reply. I feel for anyone with genuine GID. It must make life very hard at times. I'm glad for you that you're pleased with your surgical outcome.

Rachel

Yes, I realise because I put in quotes it looks like I was quoting you. That wasn't my intention, sorry! Frankly I found it quite hard to describe in one sentence what you had said. But certainly an orgasm that goes from your chest to your knees was it? Sounds 'better than ever'.

"I'd rather leave it to medically qualified professional healthcare workers". That's very different to your accusation that my thinking would lead to any losses in children.

Yes, when the medically qualified healthcare workers appear surprised that giving Jazz Jennings puberty blockers had done him 'no favours down there' (and that is a quote), then my faith in their, let's call it altruism, remains pretty low.

Jazz's surgeon seemed to have no bloody idea that keeping the child in a prepubescent state would mean he has little to no sexual function.

Jazz, at 17 years old, actually asked his father quite how much of his mother's vagina he sees during sex. Whilst they were all having tea.

Does that sound like a family who have been well informed?

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the results of trans genital surgery can have much sensation.
Having had a c section, which is just a simple cut and sew back together, and having experienced the (very common,) adhesions, scar tissue and numbness of damaged/dead nerves, I cannot believe that completely taking apart the genitals and surgically cobbling bits of them back together would allow for full sensation.
Interestingly (and horrifyingly,) enough, the rate of neoclitoral necrosis can be very high.
The success rate for the creation of a clitoris for trans women greatly varies. The most common cause of failure is the necrosis of the tissue from lack of blood supply. The greatest non-lethal health risk is damage to the pudendal nerves that greatly reduces the chances and intensity of orgasms when severed.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoroplasty
This is an extremely informative article on the more common procedures, with lots of information on the care of the neovagina.
transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-vaginoplasty
The things that stuck out to me were that
You should use soap and water to cleanse the vaginal canal after each dilation.
Which of course is completely contrary to what should be done for an actual vagina.
The issues with using colon
Since the secretion is digestive there is a risk of malodor and frequent secretions, and secretions are constant rather than only with arousal. Wearing panty liners or pads may be necessary for the long term. Bacterial overgrowth (diversion colitis) is common and may present with a greenish discharge, treatment includes. The bowel lining is also not as durable as skin. Use of intestinal tissue also places the vagina at risk of diseases of the bowel
That the flora in either colon or scrotal and penile neovaginas are very different to an actual vagina (of course) and douching is often recommended to cleanse it.
Lactobacilli were found in only 1 of 30 women, and candida was not found. There was no correlation between the presence of vaginal symptoms and any one particular species.[1] These findings suggest that vaginal discharge and odor in transgender women is unlikely to due to common causes in non-transgender women such as bacterial dysbiosis or candida; indeed the lack of a mucosa or low pH are consistent with this study's findings of rare lactobacilli and no candida. In most cases discharge is most likely due to sebum, dead skin or keratin debris, or retained semen or lubricant.
And I have read trans males saying that hair removal via electrolysis is unnecessary as surgeons scrape the scrotal skin that will be used internally, but this in fact says
Scrotal skin has abundant hair follicles and it is possible to transfer skin with sparse hair growth into the vagina unless hair is removed in advance. Some surgeons rely on treating all the visible hair with aggressive thinning of the skin and cauterization of visible hair follicles at the time of surgery. However, since hair grows in stages this approach might not adequately address dormant follicles. The most reliable method of preventing hair growth in the vagina is to perform scrotal electrolysis
Sorry for the long post!

And here are some statistics on orgasmic capability, taken from multiple studies:
transresearch.info/tag/clitoroplasty/

Hi Datun. - Does that sound like a family who have been well informed? - I don't know very much about Jazz Jennings, but you make excellent points! As I understand it, Jazz is involved in a TV programme. Sounds more "scripted" than a spontanious conversation at the dinner table. Doesn't seem like a typical evening conversation (trans kids or otherwise) to me, so I get your point.

from your chest to your knees was it? Sounds 'better than ever'. - Again - although I feel it in a greater area, it's less intense. It wouldn't wish to say whether males or females have better orgasms, but from my perspective, one is intense in a very specific area and the other is less intense in a greater area. It's certainly not a matter of the same intenity as before, but engulfs the whole body. That'd be bullshit.

Scrumplestiltskin - I find it extremely difficult to believe that the results of trans genital surgery can have much sensation. - Okie doke. That's yours to believe. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones. I was given the following statistics which I had to accept when undergoing surgery:
Loss of clitoris - 2%
Fistula - 1%
Stricture of the Urethra -

Rachel40s

I'm wondering if this my socialisation, or just a natural feeling, but I've decided I don't care. So I want to apologise again for putting you on the stand like this. It feels incredibly intrusive.

I feel the need to point out that I don't suppose there's a woman here who would drill down in to any kind of male surgery in order to make someone justify it.

The only reason women dissect all this is because of the rebranding and remarketing of gender dysphoria as something very different.

Being transgender, currently, is almost an aspiration for many of our youngsters.

Again, I will use Jazz Jennings. Feted and celebrated on a TV show, which, by its nature, has to put a positive spin on almost everything. But even they can't paper over the cracks of what looks like a horrific situation.

If you google Jazz Jennings, gender dysphoria is barely mentioned. It's all about him wanting to wear a tutu when he was five. Which would strike fear into the heart of almost every parent, because so many boys do. Of course.

So gender dysphoria doesn't seem to have figured too largely.

Nonetheless, can you imagine any other psychological condition being portrayed in a reality show as something positive?

And served up as entertainment - but that's another thread entirely.

Anyway, however cynical I remain in general, it's very good of you to lay yourself bare. And I'm glad the surgery is working for you, personally.

Again - although I feel it in a greater area, it's less intense. It wouldn't wish to say whether males or females have better orgasms, but from my perspective, one is intense in a very specific area and the other is less intense in a greater area. It's certainly not a matter of the same intenity as before, but engulfs the whole body.

This made me laugh (not at you, Rachel, I hasten to add) because husband and myself have had similar conversations about the difference between women and men vis a vis orgasms and come to pretty much the same conclusion.

I agree with Datun that this does all feel unpleasantly intrusive. But, on the other hand, I also think frankness about such things is both helpful and interesting. So thanks for being so open.

In terms of being intrusive, this is what I meant earlier when i said I would not be comfortable discussing my orgasms. Hence, I do wonder if it is about gender socialisation. I think Rachel, you came to the thread and spoke very openly and clearly about things which we female people find intrusive to continue discussing. Just an observation.

I wonder if that is one reason the TRAs have traction - we are all too polite to discuss the nitty gritty of what is actually below (and the law prohibits us from asking in a same-sex space). It’s an interesting point. At least three people on this thread have said they find the discussing intrusive for Rachel although she initiated it (and would hopefully tell us when it crossed a line for her).

Hence, I do wonder if it is about gender socialisation. I think Rachel, you came to the thread and spoke very openly and clearly about things which we female people find intrusive to continue discussing.

I’m a female person and I don’t regard it as intrusive in this context. It’s an anonymous online discussion forum, and we are discussing the topic respectfully. It’s not the same as in real life because if you don’t want to answer, it’s easy enough to walk away. This is true for all of us.

I find it intrusive if I feel the tone is that it's me interrogating somebody else. But I don't have the least problem in being open myself.

But nobody has unexpectedly ambushed anyone about the topic in the queue at Waitrose, or on a long-distance train journey. Surely anyone not wishing to participate, on a thread titled as this one is, just doesn’t participate?

rachel thank you for your posts, very informative and helpful to this discussion
Re TRAs do you feel able to speak out about them IRL in terms of the negative effect they are having on people with genuine gender dysphoria? I feel it would carry so much more weight coming from transsexuals like yourself who can’t just be labelled terf/bigot

And we were trying to quietly get on with our own lives until all this shit started kicking up from the TRAs. Fetishists wanting "women's rights". Blokes with erect penises being able to waltz around women's changing rooms (Baaarff). Transsexuals (generally) were trying to "blend in" as much as possible. Anything which accentuates the disparity between our Birth Sex and our Acquired Gender was absolutely horrific to us - that's what Gender Dysphoria IS! What we have now is unfathomable to me, yet very dangerous for so many.

Yup TRAs are bad for everyone, except TRAs and other fetishists and pervs looking for access to women. But noone besides transsexual people and women seem to be able to see it! Its extremely frustrating.

That is the most honest statement I've ever read from a transwoman.

It simply acknowledges that women exist, that we are anatomically very different from you and that it is not possible to become one, only a best approximation.

Yes, was a very refreshing read. Its the utter denial that transowmen are in any way different to women that annoys me most about this whole thing I think.

Thank you, everyone!
I'll finish my contribution to this thread, if I may, with these points:
Datun - No need to apologise. This is healthy, intelligent debate about an issue which is extremely serious.

LangCleg - Please don't worry. I just thought I was in a position to offer an insight into what I've been through. Yeah - it's gruesome and intimate, but anonymous enough.

IcedCocoa - Thank you. But reading APaB's original question, there's not going to be any simple way to sugar-coat the answer. I've tried to be sensitive and spare the gruesome details. Anyone wishing to find out more can easily do so. We all have Google.

hipsterfun

Why would a medical professional ask you to accept the risk of losing what you never had. That loss of clitoris risk item makes no sense.

I didn’t say you should sugar coat the answer, just that it was your choice to make the answer. I said people generally may be too polite to discuss these things, which may be why people follow the TRA line so unquestioningly.

I keep feeling like I am saying one thing and you are understanding/responding to another.

Anyway, I think it was an interesting discussion but I cannot say it is something I would ever google.

Loss of clitoris must mean loss of penile tip to make ‘clitoris’ or inability to make ‘clitoris’ with the materials at hand (penis). So it means surely loss of ability to create ‘clitoris’.

Argh, I think I am best leaving this thread. I wish all people suffering GID well and that they have the means of recovery from it, but my mind is too boggled at the moment.

Rachel - thanks for your posts

Yes Rachel, thank you for your honesty and willingness to share intimate and personal information.

Loss of clitoris must mean loss of penile tip to make ‘clitoris’ or inability to make ‘clitoris’ with the materials at hand (penis). So it means surely loss of ability to create ‘clitoris’.

Yes, the neoclitoris between 1% and 10% of the time will necrotise, scab over, and then fall off, generally leaving little sensate tissue.

Rachel the links I provided give the risks of complications, so I'm well aware of them. My point is merely that if even a simple single incision usually causes some degree of numbness, (often severe,) it seems impossible that completely dissecting and reassembling the genital tissue would not result in extensive nerve damage.