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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman requests a female nurse. She gets a transwoman instead.

137 replies

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 31/12/2017 02:55

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

There's a thread about this on AIBU and the usual cries of "transphobic bigots!" are out in full force.

I knew this would happen eventually. We predicted that sex and gender ID would clash like this but we were shot down and told it would never happen. Yet here we are.

I'm just angry that people thought this was acceptable. Who in their right mind could hear "I would like to see a female nurse please" and honestly think that a man who thinks he is/wants to be a woman was acceptable?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 02/01/2018 13:49

Why didn't they just ban the abusive troll?

SparklyUnicornTractors · 02/01/2018 13:52

Thank you Spartacus , I'd been following the thread but missed all that.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 14:06

Why didn't they just ban the abusive troll?

Don't know. I'm not HQ :). Datun might have more insight when she wakes up. The bridge dweller was pretty nasty but up until overnight it seemed to be more a battle between 'understanding women of a feminist bent' and others who were pretty sexist or who had not RTFT - the bridge dweller was something.

I haven't had/didn't get the opportunity to really read a string of recent theads in depth, but there does seem an alarming tendency of late for rogue posters to mock women who have been sexually abused.

busyboysmum · 02/01/2018 14:07

There seems to be a rash of teenage boys joining up to derail these threads at the moment.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 14:14

I was wondering if it was TRAs - the bridge dweller did go off on an odd rant about trans at one point and it did occur to me that a TRA tactic could be to discount the need for sex-specific HCPs more generally.

Ereshkigal · 02/01/2018 14:22

The fact that they brought trans into it makes me think that they had an agenda as from what I saw it was not about that.

Datun · 02/01/2018 14:25

I think Datun was part of the fray so she probably has a better image than me.

It was a fairly useful thread for rebutting sexist ideas that women should just roll over. Although frustrating. And several comprehensive posts about medical guidelines, which were also useful.

Then a pissed wanker came on. Calling women muppets, jokers and precious. Whilst managing to put in sexist comments regarding hot nurses.

Although he was clearly an idiot, his conviction that it was okay for woman to choose a female HCP only as long as she had been raped was very depressing.

Partly because I think many people think this way. They have an idea that woman's boundaries can be defined by someone else on the basis of arbitrary conditions that they get to grade in order of importance.

I reported him several times. But as someone else pointed out, the night time mods are a bit thin on the ground.

(Although it was awesome when one poster told him to fuck off and he became infuriated with her use of 'profanity').

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 14:27

They did bring trans in, but it wasn't coherent. I was going to screen-shot it when I read it because I had a hunch it would be pulled, but I got distracted and forgot. Datun was fighting the good fight up until the early hours so she might have more insight. My impression was adult rather than teenage.

Datun · 02/01/2018 14:30

Yes my impression was also adult. The trans thing I think was because he also looked at the TIM smear test nurse thread and got confused.

Datun · 02/01/2018 14:31

Oh, sorry, that's this thread!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 14:31

Then a pissed wanker came on. Calling women muppets, jokers and precious. Whilst managing to put in sexist comments regarding hot nurses

I'd forgotten the hot nurses.

I guess I thought of MRA/TRA more than random pissed wanker though because of the odd bit re trans.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 14:33

The trans thing I think was because he also looked at the TIM smear test nurse thread and got confused

Oh is that what happened? I guess I'm having trouble telling all the recent bridge-dwellers apart. They all seem to drink at the same pub or something.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 14:36

I'd put a pile of stuff about consent on that thread together with links to GMC and Government guidance. So I felt frustrated at it being pulled. The message that I saw this morning about it being pulled when I refreshed the thread (it was still up on my screen overnight) was there were so many posts that needed to be removed that the thread would look like 'swiss cheese' (MN's phrase not mine).

It just means that if some troll decides to come along, important posts which contain meaningful content which is helpful to women in understanding what their rights are, can be removed.

I did think about messaging MNHQ to whinge about it, but thought the better of it in the end, and have made a conscious mental note that I need to make more of a point over medical consent and rights in general on MN again. I usually do, if I see something relevant, but having seen the thread, I think it needs to be done more often tbh.

Women need to know this stuff, and very few people are encouraging discussion over consent in medicine. Its a subject that needs much more talking about.

Datun · 02/01/2018 14:41

RedToothBrush

Yes, your posts were really useful. I wish I had screenshotted them.

I also noticed that the posters disagreeing with OP tended to dry up somewhat after your posts.

Especially the bits about developing trust and never allowing duress to form part of the patient's experience.

IrkThePurist · 02/01/2018 14:46

RedToothBrush Could you please post that info in its own thread?
I'm angry to see the whole thread was pulled.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 15:08

Irk, I'll repost it here in a bit. I have to go back and re-source it all, and I've a toddler currently demanding some attention.

Datun, funny that isn't it? Its not the first time I've talked about medical consent and its suddenly gone quiet.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 17:16

Ok, the two key resources are the government's guidance on consent and the GMC guidance on consent.

The government's guidance can be found in full here:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/138296/dh_103653__1_.pdf

The GMC's guidance on consent can be found in full here:
www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/ethical_guidance/consent_guidance_contents.asp

There are a couple of very basic principles that both tackle and in essence they are the same though worded slightly differently. The first is to address the balance of power between patient and practitioner, which automatically lies with the HCP and the second is to establish and maintain trust between patient and practitioner which is essential to ensure that the patient receives the best possible care for their individual and unique needs.

In order to do this, there is an emphasis on the involvement of the patient in the decision making process and good communication.

In all circumstances you retain the right to refuse treatment, if you are mentally capable to do so, and there are few circumstances that this applies. Even if you have mental health problems you can still have capacity to consent or refuse consent and there are ways to ensure your consent is respected even if you have a temporary restriction to your capacity.

Anyway, the really key points which need particularly stressing when it comes to intimate examinations and women are these:

From the government guidance
1.10. To be valid, consent must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence being exerted on the person either to accept or refuse treatment. Such pressure can come from partners or family members, as well as health or care practitioners. Practitioners should be alert to this possibility and where appropriate should arrange to see the person on their own in order to establish that the decision is truly their own.

In other words, if you feel pressured into consenting to anything by a HCP then the HCP is on dodgy ground. They should do everything possible to make YOU feel comfortable. It is not about THEIR comfort and THEIR values and beliefs. If you feel pressured there is a problem. There is no grey area here. It either means that the HCP has unintentionally made you feel pressured which is bad or that they have deliberately pressured which is worse. Both scenarios need to be addressed.

The GMC guidance states the following:
3. For a relationship between doctor and patient to be effective, it should be a partnership based on openness, trust and good communication. Each person has a role to play in making decisions about treatment or care.

4. No single approach to discussions about treatment or care will suit every patient, or apply in all circumstances. Individual patients may want more or less information or involvement in making decisions depending on their circumstances or wishes. And some patients may need additional support to understand information and express their views and preferences.

5. If patients have capacity to make decisions for themselves, a basic model applies:
a. The doctor and patient make an assessment of the patient’s condition, taking into account the patient’s medical history, views, experience and knowledge.
b. The doctor uses specialist knowledge and experience and clinical judgement, and the patient’s views and understanding of their condition, to identify which investigations or treatments are likely to result in overall benefit for the patient. The doctor explains the options to the patient, setting out the potential benefits, risks, burdens and side effects of each option, including the option to have no treatment. The doctor may recommend a particular option which they believe to be best for the patient, but they must not put pressure on the patient to accept their advice.
c. The patient weighs up the potential benefits, risks and burdens of the various options as well as any non-clinical issues that are relevant to them. The patient decides whether to accept any of the options and, if so, which one. They also have the right to accept or refuse an option for a reason that may seem irrational to the doctor, or for no reason at all.
d. If the patient asks for a treatment that the doctor considers would not be of overall benefit to them, the doctor should discuss the issues with the patient and explore the reasons for their request. If, after discussion, the doctor still considers that the treatment would not be of overall benefit to the patient, they do not have to provide the treatment. But they should explain their reasons to the patient, and explain any other options that are available, including the option to seek a second opinion.

Note here that you can refuse consent for ANY reason or no reason, whether the doctor considers this irrational or is at odds with their own personal beliefs. They can not impose their beliefs on you.

Since this guidance was all written there has been an important legal case, and I believe the guidance is currently under review (probably as a direct result of the ruling).

There used to be precedence called the Bolam Test, which stated that "If a doctor reaches the standard of a responsible body of medical opinion, he is not negligent".

In 2015 there was a case where a woman got a ruling from the Supreme Court regarding informed consent. She had diabetes and gave birth by vaginal delivery. Her baby, was born with serious disabilities after shoulder dystocia during delivery. The doctor did not tell the woman of the 9-10% risk of shoulder dystocia.

As a result doctors must now ensure that patients are aware of any “material risks” involved in a proposed treatment, and of reasonable alternatives. It basically shifts the emphasis from the 'reasonable doctor' to the 'reasonable patient'.

Thus, if it is reasonable for a person in the patient’s position would be likely to attach significance to the risk, or the doctor is or should reasonably be aware that the particular patient would be likely to attach significance to it, then they should be informed.

If you want to put this in the context of a woman whom has requested a female HCP. It is reasonable to assume that the patient might be sensitive to being treated by a male or indeed someone they might regard as male. Thus handling consent where a clear preference has been stated has to be treated with the highest possible amount of sensitivity. It is not acceptable for this woman to be put into a position where she might feel compelled or pressure to under go treatment against her previously stated preferences.

She can not been deemed to lack capacity to consent even if she suffers from anxiety or PTSD. Conversely, this reasonably creates an assumption that should automatically be respected that this woman is more vulnerable because of the request and her health needs and there shouldn't be an assumption that she can simply be assertive if put into a position which is at odds with her original request.

The reason that this is all is important is because of the need for trust in the relationship between HCP and patient. It recognises that the power lies with the HCP and its the HCP's responsibility to ensure that they have properly communicated and informed a patient. Their own personal feelings and beliefs come AFTER those of the patient. The patients feelings and beliefs should be respected as they underpin trust.

A breach of trust can mean that a patient's relationship with a HCP is damaged. This could impact on whether they get the best possible healthcare for their circumstances. It could endanger their wellbeing, because they no longer feel they can trust what they are told by HCPs. This impacts not just on the immediate illness but all subsequent treatment and contact with other HCPs regardless of whether it is related to the initial condition.

Basically, if you ever feel you are pressured to consent in ANY circumstances by a HCP, then your consent might not be valid, and you have a right to make a complaint to address why this situation arose and whether it was a matter of poor communication or an abuse of power.

The situations in which you can be deemed to lack capacity are rare, and your history or previous expressions of concern over consent are relevant and important in these rare instances.

Its also worth pointing out you can not be put into a situation where you are told that you must accept treatment from Dr X or you will not receive any treatment as this is effectively blackmail and you would be consenting under duress. The NHS would have to offer a reasonable alternative solution which you are happy to consent to.

I would stress here, that this is where it differs considerably to a patient who is merely racist. Its about what is considered reasonable according to the patient's individual circumstances and those should override those of a HCP if they are practising ethically and within the guidelines.

I hope that is clear and easy to understand. It needs to be repeated over and over and over again to drip, drip it through to women.

It is a minefield for HCP, but it is down to them to demonstrate they have done everything possible to obtain and respect your consent / refusal of it.

In the context of this particular thread, its noteworthy too.

Datun · 02/01/2018 20:33

Brilliant RedToothBrush.

Absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for doing all that. And for the explanations along the way.

Invaluable.

guardianfree · 02/01/2018 20:40

Brilliant post RTB. Thank you.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 02/01/2018 20:53

Great resource, thank you Red.

Although, in principle, I agree that a trans identified male's should not have to perform femininity to any particular standard the fact that this TIM wasn't performing any femininity whilst knowingly offering intimate exams to women who have specifically asked for a female practitioner screams deliberate boundary violator to me.

This guy knew that a female had been requested and he also knew that he would immediately be read as male. He will have had sensitivity training and will have known that the request may have been due to previous sexual trauma but he either thought that his feelings trumped his patients or he was getting off on the boundary violation either way that individual should not be in that job.

The fact that anybody can defend his actions just goes to reinforce the fact that women are treated as sub-human.

thebewilderness · 02/01/2018 21:04

The mod said that the thread would look like swiss cheese if they only removed the verbally abusive posts of DoubleAce so they would take down the entire thread. I was, and am, deeply disappointed because the thread was a useful discussion of a problem that is very common in the health care field. Patients not being listened to.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 22:36

This guy knew that a female had been requested and he also knew that he would immediately be read as male. He will have had sensitivity training and will have known that the request may have been due to previous sexual trauma but he either thought that his feelings trumped his patients or he was getting off on the boundary violation either way that individual should not be in that job.

Exactly this. And at the first hint of a concern they should have backed off, rather than tried to continue or protest to the contrary to the patient.

It is a breech of trust, and you can bet thats why the Trust backed off sharply citing a clerical error rather than an issue with ethics and abuse of power. They don't want a legal case.

I do think that the guidance ion consent is pretty strong and well worded, and because its not specific but remains patient centred, it isn't so vulnerable to political manipulation and interference as it might otherwise be.

Rulings in legal cases in this area are also fairly reassuring. As long as there is an understanding and public sympathy for sexual assault and abuse victims then 'reasonable expectation' of a patient with that history will remain valid, even if 'transphobia' is made illegal in other areas, because if all else fails it should still fall under being termed 'irrational' belief that must be respected in the best interests of the patient and also.to protect the member of staff's professionalism.

And because so many women sympathise with other women because so many are victims, the definition of 'reasonableness' isn't going to just evaporate even with the current political climate.

I do think, there is only a matter of time before we get a legal case in this specific area though if Trusts are going to be slack, and frankly negligent, on proactively creating their own policies to acknowledge and recognise the very obvious problem.

thebewilderness · 02/01/2018 23:16

It is hard to view it as anything other than a rather blatant male dominance display.
Fine they apologized, still, the question is how will they address this sort of violation of patients rights in the future.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 23:19

We don't know.

And this would be a good subject for a mass FOI by a newspaper.

irretating · 03/01/2018 00:06

Maybe their hands were tied, the NHS practice managers that is. If they're unable to say to a TIM, no you're not suitable for this work because you're biologically male and a bio woman has been requested.

www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/862/350-Supportingtransgenderstaffpolicy.pdf This is the supporting transgender staff policy for Wales, I'm sure NHS England has a similar one but I'm not in a searchy mood.

The relevant paragraph is page 14, Appendix A

''^NB Equality Act 2010 -Schedule 9 “Occupational Requirements” does provide for exceptions where the requirement not to be a transsexual person is “a proportionate means of achieving a
legitimate aim”. The onus is on the employer to prove such an exception applies. In general, a requirement that restricts an occupation to persons of a particular sex should also be open to
transsexual persons of that acquired gender. The Codes of Practice published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission are clear that such exceptions will be rare and on a case by case basis^''

The NHS practice manager would have to prove that carrying out a smear test is a reasonable exception to the rule that prohibits discrimination against transgender people. If they would struggle to do that then the only option might be to pass the buck on to the patients. Those who object to a transwoman carrying out an intimate examination on the grounds that they'd asked for a female HCP will be able to give NHS managers the 'reasonable exception'. i.e non-compliance and an associated risk to health.