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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman requests a female nurse. She gets a transwoman instead.

137 replies

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 31/12/2017 02:55

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

There's a thread about this on AIBU and the usual cries of "transphobic bigots!" are out in full force.

I knew this would happen eventually. We predicted that sex and gender ID would clash like this but we were shot down and told it would never happen. Yet here we are.

I'm just angry that people thought this was acceptable. Who in their right mind could hear "I would like to see a female nurse please" and honestly think that a man who thinks he is/wants to be a woman was acceptable?

OP posts:
TheXXFactor · 31/12/2017 07:26

I'm so relieved that the Times is publicising these issues. It's critical that people understand what is at stake with the GRA proposals and put pressure on MPs to oppose them.

RhythmStix · 31/12/2017 07:44

As far as I can see it's just another way of men being allowed to dominate women. Same old, same old.

honeysucklejasmine · 31/12/2017 07:47

Does anyone have ability to share full article? I always thought this of thing was a hypothetical thought exercise?

honeysucklejasmine · 31/12/2017 07:49

*sort of thing

I mean, I never thought it would actually happen. If someone is making a point of asking for a woman, surely you give them a woman? Save the TIMs for people not bothered either way.

Seriouslyjuicy · 31/12/2017 07:50

Can anyone copy and paste the article? Its behind a pay wall

StealthPolarBear · 31/12/2017 07:51

Can we request cis women?
Have cis women only toilets and spaces

NauticalDisaster · 31/12/2017 07:55

A woman who requested a female NHS nurse to perform her cervical smear test was “embarrassed and distressed” after a person with stubble and a deep voice summoned her for the intimate procedure.

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

This weekend, the woman, who decided not to go ahead with the examination, said it was “weird where somebody says to you: ‘My gender is not male’ and you think: ‘Well, what does that even mean? You are clearly a man.’ ”

The nurse “had an obviously male appearance . . . close-cropped hair, a male facial appearance and voice, large number of tattoos and facial stubble”, she said.

The woman received an official NHS apology after she made a complaint about her treatment.

The incident has been revealed as Justine Greening, the equalities minister and education secretary, is considering proposals that would allow people to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis.

The Sunday Times reported last week that a consultation on the changes to the Gender Recognition Act had been delayed amid claims Greening was getting cold feet about self-certification.

The patient said it was “bad enough for a fortysomething mother”, but the effect of such an incident on her 17-year-old daughter would have been much worse.

James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, said these kind of awkward situations would become more common if self-certification went ahead. “Politicians have not thought through all the implications of allowing self-certification,” he said.

The patient has requested anonymity for herself and the clinic because of fears it or the nurse could be criticised. The appointment for the test — also known as a cervical screening test — was on September 16 last year in an NHS clinic run by the Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust.

In a letter of complaint sent afterwards, the patient said that when she booked her appointment she had requested a female nurse or practitioner.

She added: “People who are not comfortable about this are presented as bigots and this is . . . kind of how I was made to feel about it.”

She stressed her complaint was not about the nurse’s appearance or gender status.

It is understood the nurse self-identified as a woman but had not been employed on that basis. He saw the patient only because of a clerical error.

Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust said: “We apologised to this patient for the recording error and because the staff member accepted they didn’t manage the situation appropriately; the patient needed to feel listened to. Trust policy is to consider seriously all requests for clinicians of a particular gender.”

@nicholashellen

TheXXFactor · 31/12/2017 08:19

The patient received an apology and an acknowledgment that what has happened was wrong. That will change if the revised GRA is passed: a patient who complained would be treated like someone who complained about a nurse's race - told to bog off and treated as a bigot.

In theory a patient always has the right to refuse examination by an individual, without having to state a reason, so we are not going to see women literally forced to have intimate examinations from TIM. But in practice, most patients struggle to exercise this right, because of the power differential between clinician and patient. And it's much harder if you are treated as a bigot for complaining. Many women will feel unable to object Sad

Killdora · 31/12/2017 08:31

This would make me uncomfortable and I would have refused the examination too.

I have a relative that would have been seriously messed up by this though, she went through horrific abuse when she was younger and will not have a man/male/any one with a penis near her intimately.

The thought of this self-cert bullshit being passed and her having to go through being called a bigot for refusing a clinician makes me furious.

All the things she’s gone through, actual abuse and pain and mental torment, dismissed to make way for a mans ‘feelings’.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/12/2017 08:40

It is dreadful that something we were told was just "transphobic scare tactics, so stfu" has actually happened.

It could be so much worse if a more vulnerable, traumatised woman or girl were faced with a transwoman performing an intimate procedure
In the future, that vulnerable woman or girl might have to be so so careful not to face legal sanctions in trying to refuse a transwoman.

Already, transwomen, sometimes just self-certified, can enter some formerly safe spaces that very vulnerable women need.

WTAFisthisshit · 31/12/2017 08:53

I know we don't like the mail but they also ran a piece yesterday about woman being upset about men in bikinis in the woman's pool at Hampstead Heath.

Off to find the AIBU thread now Sad

Datun · 31/12/2017 09:05

I'm not just infuriated by this article, but by people's reaction. One poster decided that even if you had been raped, refusing a male HCP would be discriminatory.

How the fuck have we got to this point? Where people's brains are so scrambled they literally can't think properly.

So a woman is supposed to sit there reliving her rape and PTSD symptoms firing off all over the place, to validate someone's identity?

BlackBetha · 31/12/2017 09:11

It's true that women can refuse the examination, but how horrible to put them in the situation of having to choose between being a 'bigot' and submitting to something they feel deeply uncomfortable with. Especially as many will already be feeling exposed and vulnerable in the situation of having an intimate exam at all, as well as being distressed (maybe reminded of past abusers) by the attempted coercion and gaslighting.

Not to mention those who might not be able to articulate their objection easily because of lack of English skills, or learning difficulties etc. It's just horrible and unnecessary. There are plenty of women who would be fine with a male nurse, trans or otherwise, so why target the few who have specifically requested a female (and probably have good reason for doing so)?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/12/2017 09:12

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

This is my biggest problem with the whole thing. Surely a decent HCP who was focused on the patient and their care and their feelings would have just immediately apologised and fetched a female HCP. I have no problems at all with TIMs working in healthcare as long as they put their patients first, and as long as they work as males. TIMS and TIFs have every right not to be discriminated against in terms of employment etc, except where there are legitimate sex based exceptions.

PocketCoffeeEspresso · 31/12/2017 09:19

Trust policy is to consider seriously all requests for clinicians of a particular gender.”

Well, that's also put another argument that was being used into the circle file - 'seriously consider' that's not having the 'right' to a same sex practitioner at all is it, that's them getting to choose if your request is worthy.

PocketCoffeeEspresso · 31/12/2017 09:21

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual."

I've had a female nurse at the practice do mine twice now, and she still confirms at every point that I'm OK, that she's still OK to proceed, that I'm comfortable (well, as can be expected) - a professional does that.

Greenshoots1 · 31/12/2017 09:24

That person did NOT make a mistake, the patient TOLD them they wanted a female, and their response was "I'm not male" - no mistake or misunderstanding, quite deliberate and calculated bullying and intimidation.

However much the trust claims it was a "mistake"

sickening

Greenshoots1 · 31/12/2017 09:25

Can we request cis women?

why should anyone be forced to join in this perverted and convoluted linguistic repression?

There is no such thing as "cis" women.

just women and people who are not women.

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 09:32

Ok - I smell bullshit - and I am TERFY mc TERF!

I am an ex practice nurse - in my day we had to do a special course to do smears.
A - either the TIM had done the course and the surgery had tried to be 'progressive ' and got caught out

Or

B - it didn't happen

I can't see any nurse attempting a procedure they hadn't been trained in - so the 'mistake' would not get that far.

But I did leave nursing 15 years ago and maybe things have changed

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 09:32

Ok - I smell bullshit - and I am TERFY mc TERF!

I am an ex practice nurse - in my day we had to do a special course to do smears.
A - either the TIM had done the course and the surgery had tried to be 'progressive ' and got caught out

Or

B - it didn't happen

I can't see any nurse attempting a procedure they hadn't been trained in - so the 'mistake' would not get that far.

But I did leave nursing 15 years ago and maybe things have changed

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 09:32

Ok - I smell bullshit - and I am TERFY mc TERF!

I am an ex practice nurse - in my day we had to do a special course to do smears.
A - either the TIM had done the course and the surgery had tried to be 'progressive ' and got caught out

Or

B - it didn't happen

I can't see any nurse attempting a procedure they hadn't been trained in - so the 'mistake' would not get that far.

But I did leave nursing 15 years ago and maybe things have changed

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 09:32

Ok - I smell bullshit - and I am TERFY mc TERF!

I am an ex practice nurse - in my day we had to do a special course to do smears.
A - either the TIM had done the course and the surgery had tried to be 'progressive ' and got caught out

Or

B - it didn't happen

I can't see any nurse attempting a procedure they hadn't been trained in - so the 'mistake' would not get that far.

But I did leave nursing 15 years ago and maybe things have changed

cafeaulaitpourvous · 31/12/2017 09:33

Ah balls - is that a multiple post I see before me?

BlackBetha · 31/12/2017 09:39

I don't think anyone is suggesting the trans nurse was not qualified/trained to do the procedure, or that male/trans nurses should never do smear tests? Just that they were not an appropriate choice for a patient who had specifically requested a female nurse.

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