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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman requests a female nurse. She gets a transwoman instead.

137 replies

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 31/12/2017 02:55

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg

There's a thread about this on AIBU and the usual cries of "transphobic bigots!" are out in full force.

I knew this would happen eventually. We predicted that sex and gender ID would clash like this but we were shot down and told it would never happen. Yet here we are.

I'm just angry that people thought this was acceptable. Who in their right mind could hear "I would like to see a female nurse please" and honestly think that a man who thinks he is/wants to be a woman was acceptable?

OP posts:
irretating · 31/12/2017 23:12

@xenophile, pass on all our good wishes to her. I sincerely hope that many women will read this and take courage from it. I know I certainly have.

IcedCocoa · 01/01/2018 08:54

Ditto.

Bindibot · 01/01/2018 10:45

Any decent HCP would totally understand and accept a patients request of been seen by a particular sex without them having to disclose why, particularly in a routine appointment.

As a PP said a good HCP will always offer a chaperone, as much for their protection as the patients.

There was a GP at my practice who I complained about, I went to him with an ear infection and he asked me to undress from the waist up…

I went WTF, pointed out it was my ears and that if he wanted to listen to my chest he could do so through my top.
I made a verbal complaint.

Next time I ended up with him, again an ear infection, I’m prone. He decided that my smear test needed to be brought forward by 5 months and he’d do it now to save me the bother of making another appointment…

‘Just hop on the couch now…’ I pointed out a) I wasn’t due, b) I wanted a chaperone and was told not to be such a silly little girl…

Walked out of the room and asked for the practice manager, who accused first refused to believe such a thing of Dr X and then accused me of being racist. Asked her to check my address and see who else was registered there, DP who is of the same ethnic background as GP.

Disgusted that her first go to place was not to believe me, and then accuse me of racism.

I was also asked if I had ‘issues’ with men why didn’t I request a female.

It took me pointing out that he had broken so many ethics and that I had the number for the GMC on speed dial ( for work )before she would register my complaint.
(And I hated myself for doing the I’m not racist ‘cause card)

Even so fuck all happened.

Well except me being labelled a ‘difficult’ patient and only be seen by senior partners…result!! (Oddly enough the senior partner I see most often is male and of the same ethnic background as the one I complained about and we have a great relationship, cause he’s a professional and a decent guy)

I did complain to the GMC too, nothing happened. He’s still practising, not at our practice, after mutiple complaints he was asked to leave. (Even though practice manager stated I was the only one to complain ever ever…)

After 20 years of practice I have no difficulty believing that men will & do go in the the health care professions with the view to have access to women in a vulnerable state.

I agree with NAMALT, my Dad, my brother, my DP, my nephews are all decent men.

But enough men aren’t and as women are clearly not believed when they find the courage to actually report we as a sex- not a gender, have the right to dictate who has access to our body and when

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 10:49

It's trending on Pink News on FB too. Not long before "terf" was used...

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 10:50

In the comments, not the article, which seems to gave been lifted from The Times.

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 19:26

That's awful Bindi.

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 01/01/2018 20:21

Bloody hell bindi that's awful and outrageous. Well done for challenging it. Imagine if it happened to someone vulnerable who was too afraid or confused to cll him out? Having said that it is highly unlikely you were the only victim.

I've just posted on a thread in AIBU about a woman who requested a female GP to do her 6 week post-natal check, long story short despite her request she ended up being almost coerced into seeing a male GP. She's getting some awful stick from posters saying she is BU. It's truly frightening how many people hold these vile views about women's bodily autonomy.

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 20:30

I've also posted on that thread - she's being hammered for NOT being clear and assertive when her booked appointment with a female doctor was changed. Such vitriol and such a lack of understanding of why women often aren't assertive when 'cornered'. Sad

Voice0fReason · 01/01/2018 22:54

This is horrific. I don't expect to have to explain in advance that I want a female HCP. My expectation is that intimate examinations are done by female staff unless my specific permission has been sought in advance - BEFORE I get in the room!

And if consent is given, transwomen HCPs should always be chaperoned.

This cannot be allowed to continue.

ThatWasNotLove · 01/01/2018 23:12

From reading some of these threads today (very long car journey!) it makes me think that although we shouldn't have to ask for women HCP when necessary, we do and need to be more specific in language.

"I am coming for a smear test and want a same-sex HCP only." Something along these lines. We now have to bring biological sex into it, which is ridiculous, but just asking for a "woman" or "female" is not enough.

We definitely shouldn't have to, however, by using "same-sex" we're not saying "no men, no trans providers for my internal please". It's also be easier to respond to have someone presenting as the Pap smear TIM did saying they're a woman, because we could agree they're the same gender, or whatever, but we'd asked for the same sex, not same gender (presentation).

Again we shouldn't be the ones doing this, we should just have access to medical care,m. However, if this is what's going to be happening, we need some way to not have it as a big deal - or reduce the possibilities- at a time of stress to a great many women, as in the ones who've been born that biological sex and been socialized that way their entire life.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2018 23:58

Just reading up on general advice on consent by GMC and government. You can refuse consent for any reason or no reason. It may be a reason that the practitioner thinks is irrational. Your consent is not valid if you feel pressured or under duress of any kind.

Consent sort in advance should be reaffirmed at the time of examination. If you have specific concerns these should be respected and discussed with you in partnership and not simply dismissed.

Your medical history, views and experiences are relevant and should be taken into account. They should be respected even if a HCP disagrees with them.

Trust between a patient and a HCP is paramount. If you do not feel your feelings are respected this is a breech of the patient / carer relationship.

To my mind the GCM and government advice effectively gives you the right to refuse to give consent to be treated by a transwoman, if you are uncomfortable with it. This can be deemed irrational and wrong by the transwoman. Thats just tough. Your political views and beliefs should always be respected even if a HCP totally disagrees with them.

If you feel pressured to have treatment from someone who is trans then that consent is not valid. They can not use the transphobic card to guilt you into treatment.

If its on your records that you have some sort of sexual violence or history of trauma against you, then this is appropriate and should be taken into consideration. Thus if you request a female practitioner sending along a transwoman without this being properly discussed and your explicit consent given without duress or pressure is appropriate otherwise they are not respecting your individual care needs and could potentially cause you distress / mental harm.

This all also protects the clinician and their working relationship with patients. So good practice here is in the interests of trans HCPs rather than discriminating against them.

The law is generally about reasonableness as a rule. Is it reasonable for a woman who has been sexually assaulted by a man to have a fear of men? Or indeed people who they regard 'irrationally' as men? Difficult to argue 'no' imho.

If this creates a situation where its a choice being forced to consent to treatment by a transwomen or have no treatment at all then this creates a problem for the NHS, if this situation would effectively do you harm or could do you harm in anyway.

Its different to see how they could enforce a law on 'transphobia' in these circumstances. You have rights as a patient which are in direct conflict with the principles of doing no harm to a patient. A HCP effectively seeking to impose this on a patient where it would do harm technically should not be deemed fit to practice.

The need to be sensitive to this conflict of interest should therefore be one that the NHS seeks to resolve with all staff, stating that yes, it is relevant because yes, it could harm a patient even if they regard them as bigotted or irrational. The NHS withholding treatment on the basis of patients being deemed as bigots in these circumstances is rather more difficult than telling a racist patient there is no white doctor for this reason. There is a cause to the irrationality that is reasonable to understand.

Where there are loops which might be problematic is if someone decides you have to 'have proof of assault / rape'. Or to put it another way, effectively the development of a rape clause for accessing health care from a woman only. I fail to see how you could easily marry such a clause up with the 'progressive' angle of being supportive of trans rights.

The other way around it is if suddenly the rules were changed on capacity to consent and an 'irrational fear of transwomen' was deemed to be a sign that you were incapable of capacity. Again, for the same reason I don't think that viable even with the craziness.

My point is, that if a case came up, and it got to the courts, I think there would be a strong case in law to rule in favour of women, even if the law were changed.

But thats the problem. You'd need a case to knock cases like this on the head and the NHS and medical bodies be forced to develop a clear and consistent policy that should be adhered to with regard to sex or former sex of staff.

The issue is the gap that has now formed and the lack of guidance to cover this conflict of interest. Its about women no longer fully being confident in their rights and fully aware.of what constitutes consent and when it is invalid in a medical situation.

The blurring of the principles and practice of consent is extremely troubling. The NHS and government, should really have a duty of care and the presence of this gap which is now forming is a failure of that duty of care.

Its a legal minefield ready to blow up in a lot of faces, because people failed to head the warning signs saying 'minefield dead ahead'.

In this case the Trust have immediately apologised. Does this mean they are developing a policy? Or does it mean they are avoiding making a formal policy and indeed a court case that would force a formal policy.

The irony is, that a debate would resolve this. People saying they don't want a debate, don't want this looking at properly for all concerned. That to me, rings alarm bells and makes me think a big gamble is being made on the back of the knowledge and experience that women don't complain.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 00:03

Also, I suspect its probably worth getting a written note on your file, about wanting on a same sex practitioners for certain circumstances or having it recorded that you have history that might make you sensitive to certain situations and this should be taken into consideration. To protect yourself against any possible 'misunderstandings'.

Which is a fucking disgrace tbh, that anyone might feel they need to do that.

(And highlights how transcult opens a trust issue with the NHS and vulnerable women).

Kookietoo · 02/01/2018 00:10

I've recently hit #PeakTrans and everything I'm reading lately is getting me more concerned about this issue and where we are headed. I think a lot of well-meaning people are just trying to be kind & supportive to people with gender dysphoria (which certainly sounds horrendous) - i was one of those people. However, they are probably not aware of things like AGP (I've only just read up about this) & are losing sight of bigger issues at stake for women. I find this latest incident very disturbing.

This is far less important but I also hate being referred to as "cis". It all seems ridiculous to me and all these different pronouns/labels just seem like people wanting attention & to have special treatment/stand out. I imagine this makes me a TERF? Has everyone on this thread seen the new website www.peaktrans.org

Bindibot · 02/01/2018 06:57

Thanks for comments, I was confident in complaining as was a practicing Nurse at the time. But I could easily imaging a less confident and/or knowledgable patient doing as they were told.

I really don’t think a patient should have to disclose previous abuse or assault for their preference on who touches them intimately to be listened to.

I have no issues with trans people, that maybe because the only ones I’ve met are respectful of women (and are as horrified by TAs activities. They strongly feel they are wrong and worry that there will come a massive backlash).

I’m happy to fight for their rights, except when it infringes on my rights as a woman.

notafish · 02/01/2018 07:22

'I really don’t think a patient should have to disclose previous abuse or assault for their preference on who touches them intimately to be listened to'

Yes, this.

Too much focus on protecting women who have suffered rape and abuse leaves other women feeling like they don't have the right to bodily autonomy also. It's similar to rape and abortion, where that justification is more easily accepted by greater numbers of people. I'd hate to see history of sexual assault the only justifiable reason for women to request a female to provide intimate healthcare.

notafish · 02/01/2018 07:23

Oh, I read your post wrong binding. You meant women who have been abused shouldn't have to disclose tgat to get the hcp they want. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

PencilsInSpace · 02/01/2018 08:02

In this case the Trust have immediately apologised. Does this mean they are developing a policy? Or does it mean they are avoiding making a formal policy and indeed a court case that would force a formal policy.

My understanding is that in this case the nurse did not have a GRC, they simply self-ID'd as a woman, hence the apology for 'clerical error'.

If the nurse had a GRC then theoretically the exceptions in the equality act could be used to ensure that women still get a female HCP when this is requested. Who knows if the trust, or any other trust, has such a policy in place though. This is the sort of thing a FOI request would be useful for.

The biggest loophole as I see it is what happens when a HCP has a GRC (and has subsequently changed their birth certificate) and applies for a job without disclosing that they are trans. It's illegal to disclose a person's trans history without their consent if that information has been gained in a professional capacity, so no referee will mention it. Even the prison service are not allowed to ask to see a GRC.

As far as I can see (and I would love to be wrong about this) such a person would simply be recorded as female, even if everyone with eyes could tell they were male. The exceptions in the equality act would be of no use whatsoever. They would be recorded as female, employed as female and it would be illegal for anyone to say otherwise.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 08:20

This is the sort of thing a FOI request would be useful for.

I was thinking last night that someone needs to throw a very large FOI grenade at this. It probably needs to be a newspaper, to blow open some of the lack of policy and gap with the current law. It would throw up issues over any possible changes too.

Basically the system needs to be used by women for their rights as they are entitled to use it to defend their rights. Trans cult are using the system to destroy rights because women are not using what is available to them because they don't enforce that entitlement.

Its more difficult for individuals to do the same because of harassment and intimidation techniques used by transcult.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 02/01/2018 08:27

Excellent post Red

I'm getting increasingly concerned just looking at how discussions here between women over theoretical situations are beginning to frame it as women need to have justifiable cause to refuse intimate care from anyone but a woman. (And not messing with semantics, sorry, I'm out of patience for all this due to all the trouble it's causing, I do mean a woman.)

I am worried that women may be expected to provide an objectively judged and evidenced reason to get a female health carer for intimate care. That's completely unacceptable. 'I want a female HcP' should be all they need to say, with no need for evidence or to try to justify a reason for their feelings. This would be a step back in time to infantilise and patronise women. 'You may make decisions about your body but only if I objectively agree your reason is good enough'.

hackmum · 02/01/2018 08:33

Bela - about mammograms. My understanding is that at the moment they are always carried out by a female radiographer. Apparently at the TUC conference last year there was a motion to allow male radiographers to carry out mammograms (because there's a shortage of radiographers, so supposedly allowing males to do it would help redress that), but it was defeated.

On another note, I've often wondered how many women and children have been sexually assaulted by medical practitioners. I suspect it's one of those big hidden scandals, like the Catholic Church, boys' boarding schools etc. A lot of it goes on but victims are too frightened to speak out about it. Shocking as Bindi's story is, I think it may be more common than is realised.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 08:58

Sparkly I agree, but in order to do that, its got to get past as somehow progressive or fly under the radar without people noticing.

The former seems unlikely to spin the latter is more likely to be attempted. Thus many eyes are needed to keep an eye on developments in this area.

If we are aware of the potential danger its easier to defend.

Personally for many years due to issues over medical consent I refused to see a doctor without someone I trust being present. This is somewhat logistically difficult. The problem I could fall foul of is ironically questions being raised that I am under undue influence of my partner or deemed incapable to consent because of panic or anxiety.

That said, because I am particularly sensitive about my rights in this area, I know that ensuring there is something on record about conditions of consent and demonstrating that I have considered options in a calm way and that I fully understand the implications is important. I do feel explaining my position is inevitable as part of that though.

I am actually very disappointed that MN have taken it upon themselves to delete that aibu thread about the GP and consent because in order for people to asset their rights they need to properly understand them and to know the finer points over medical consent.

I'm passionate about this and don't feel women really understand. As a rule women don't asset their rights in this area, and after many years and reading threads I think have many more examples of horrendous treatment I do think lack of knowledge of rights is a central core problem to poor care carried out by clinicians.

I think to fight this, establishing a) what women's rights are b) why those rights exist c) making people have greater awareness of what those rights are and d) normalising women who stand up for thise rights and act upon their right and entitlement to complain are crucial stepping stones.

Unfortunately I do think this would run into a backlash which will involve women having to justify and defend existing rights. But I think thats an inevitably now anyway in an era where cuts are eroding your general right to healthcare and there is an increasing attitude that you should be grateful for any kind of 'free' (paying your NI clearly doesn't count) healthcare.

I am beginning to see this in terms of needing a strategic battle plan to defend womens health generally, otherwise women take the brunt of cuts to services. Mental health and consent are the two key defensive hills to stake yourselves out on imho. Both are progressive and currently hold value in society's terms. That means politically they are important.

PocketCoffeeEspresso · 02/01/2018 09:01

Jesus Bindi - well, done! And yes, I imagine as a younger woman - and maybe even now if I was feeling ill - I would just do as I'm told, it's ingrained.

every single male doctor or pharmacist I've ever seen, when talking to them about 'womens problems' has checked if I wanted to see a woman (well, except my first ever doctor when I was a kid - but he might have asked my mum) - hell, even the fucking pharmacist when I was getting the morning after pill checked before he took me into the private room to ask the questions he has to ask. TIMs who are professionals would absolutely do the same, and it's ridiculous and unprofessional behaviour from the doctor in that other woman's thread (who did, clearly state she wanted a female), and the TIM in this one.

All this stuff just reminds me to step up and enforce my boundaries (and my children's boundaries) when we need medical care.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 13:06

I've also posted on that thread - she's being hammered for NOT being clear and assertive when her booked appointment with a female doctor was changed. Such vitriol and such a lack of understanding of why women often aren't assertive when 'cornered'

That thread has just been pulled following trolling overnight.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 02/01/2018 13:35

What was the trolling please?

Red I very much agree. Women in general need to hear a whole lot more, it is ok to say no. You are not somehow being naughty or entitled to say no. Your consent matters, and just not wanting to accept that care in that way from that person is perfectly ok.

I keep banging on about this the last few days but it's only really just joined up the dots from me: this is all over the relationships board where women are experiencing various degrees of abuse, the whole 'wife work'/mental load stuff, every MIL thread, you will find women shaming other women for standing up for themselves, for having boundaries, for not putting themselves last, for not enabling others at the cost of themselves, for not accepting that this is somehow just their lot in life. Women shame other women into surrendering consent, they silence other women, and I'll bet the deeply ingrained misogyny that they internalised came from other women and not directly from men.

I keep wondering if we're raising the next generation of girls to be less co operative and ready to take on the mental load, but then I walk through Tesco and look at the girls' t shirts which are in weak and pastel colours and talk about being pretty, smiling, making the world happy, being daddy's little princess, and think OMFG. I refuse to let the 1990s be as good as it ever got for women.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/01/2018 13:46

What was the trolling please

It was a different thread. The OP went to a six week postnatal GP appt and requested a woman GP. After a convoluted series of events she received a male who pushed her into a physical she didn't really want. It was complicated and I'm not doing it justice here. Initially, most posters lambasted her and said either that she should not be able to request a woman or it was her fault for not being assertive enough. It appears that overnight a nasty troll appeared who basically told her she had issues and should request 'benzos' or ECG for her 'issues'. It was pretty horrible, but the OP held her ground from what I could see. I think Datun was part of the fray so she probably has a better image than me. I was disappointed it was pulled to be honest because the core issue was salient and it seemed to be dragged down by a single -troll- rouge poster.