Does anyone feel the need to reclaim femnism.....?

[BertrandRussell]

So many important issues just seem to be falling by the wayside. When did we last have any sort of discussion about reproductive rights in US? The Million Woman March-remember that? Weinstein and the follow up? FGM? The abortion debate in Ireland?

Yes. I care about woman's autonomy. But I also care about women's right to call out other women. Feminism isn't about being all pink and fluffy and anything goes. Are you going to give any more context to your sd's experience?

Sorry... just catching up - yes using the term 'handmaiden' would be a very nasty as an insult to a bi woman for having sex/relationships with men. I've not heard lesbians use it in that context - but doesn't mean it isn't ever done.

Victim blaming is wrong period.

If a woman were to engage in conversation around a rape or assault victim that focussed on the victims behaviour, the terms more generally used are 'rape apologism' 'rape myths' or 'victim blaming'.

Not handmaiden.

Victim blaming is wrong period.

If a woman were to engage in conversation around a rape or assault victim that focussed on the victims behaviour, the terms more generally used are 'rape apologism' 'rape myths' or 'victim blaming'.

Not handmaiden.

Thanks for explaining feminist terms to us, ALunarExplorer.

I'll just pipe up here to note that using gendered insults ('handmaidens'? really?) to describe a group of other women whose views you don't agree with, doesn't really serve any good purpose does it?

Do you think feminists should support all women, no matter that their choices and how detrimental those choices are to other women?

When my daughter cries on my shoulder because other women think it acceptable to call my daughter that, its not because she's done something wrong: its because she is being belittled. And when it happens they aren't stopping to ask my daughter her motivations: they are assuming them, without knowing a thing about her. And nor does she try to tell them - she never speaks up and tells them of the voluntary work she does helping women affected by things like period poverty, ipv and dv. She wouldn't dream of it. She does it because it needs doing.

That's not why they've spat in her face (literally, I'm horrified to say, on one occasion).

Nor is it gentle, nor is it used gently. Nor is it used constructively to say 'wait, couldn't we do this better'.

It's a gendered insult, and I really think that no feminist should ever be using the term. Under any circumstances.

And I say that, not because I am over reacting or not wishing to engage, or not recognising that I certainly have an emotional investment in the conversation.

I say it because my dd's experience of that word (and some of her friends too) has been a wholly derogatory one and I struggle to understand any argument that tries to justify the use of it.

When did we stop celebrating each other? When did we stop valuing individuality and uniqueness? When did we start seeing ourselves as 'them' and 'us'? Or assuming the worst of someone based on a slur?

@ALunerExplorer you haven't clarified if your DD was called a handmaiden based solely on her sexuality.

Of the incidents where it has happened, I know of one where that was the case. I know that because it was another family member sadly, who said it directly to me. (Sadder still because I had supported her when she came out as a lesbian to the family). I try not to dwell on that. I hope you'll understand why.

The other occasions were not to do with her sexuality.

ALunar
With respect, this thread is not about your DD.

We have every right to call our handmaidenish behaviour. I really don't know why you are making this about your DD. We have not called your DD a handmaiden.

By what right do you justify the use of the term? You must have something more than 'because I said so'?

Women who throw other women under the bus to centre men are handmaidens. Women throwing away women's rights with both hands are handmaidens. It's not about your daughter. I neither know nor care particularly why she got called one by someone not on this thread, it's nothing to do with me and I don't need to explain myself to you.

My sadness for my dd and she is just entering her teenage years is the hideous use of language used by the girls themselves about each other. It is not unusual to hear them call each other 'sluts' 'bitches' etc. The girls are privately educated with lovely families so where the hell is this coming from? Why do the boys also speak to them with complete disrespect and use the same terms.

It seems to me ( and I am truly horrified to admit this) but my dd seems to have an even harder time than I did to achieve anything approaching equality and respect, and there is a 30 year age gap...

@ALunaExplorer
I'm confused by your contributions here. Are you holding women on this board responsible for your family members and friends? who are in some way abusing your lesbian daughter?
There are a large number of lesbians on here and I have never seen anyone abusing us on here for our sexuality or beliefs.

Right - missed your last post. So is it that you are distressed about bullying between girls in a school?

If so, please do start your own thread as that's something that a number of us would comment on and try to offer support.

It's important, I think, to recognise that we all bring a certain amount of subjectivity to any situation. But to assume motivation can also needlessly colour that subjectivity.

I don't wholly or completely subscribe to anyone theory of feminism, because as a woman my experience of life cannot be wholly covered by only one theory. I find truth in gender critical theory is some things, I find truth in queer theories of feminism, and intersectional feminism (I am the granddaughter of a WoC although I am read as white and therefore experience white privilege).

My experience of Christianity and being a Christian is not wholly different: there quite a lot of people claiming to have 'the one pure truth' in Christians circles, as in feminist ones.

But I don't find truth in assumptions. Nor do I find a way to celebrate my sisters - especially when their lives and experience differ from mine - by assuming anything, far less assuming it on the basis of wholly negative assumptions.

I struggle to identify any liberation in that way.

Perhaps I really did smoke too much pot in my youth, but I find it so much easier to find common ground with people if I don't make assumptions.

So if I sometimes ask questions which may seem needless or repetitive, it is only because that is the point at which I start from.

I agree. Gendered slurs between girls who are friends are an issue. Please feel free to start a thread about his issue.

I am afraid it sounds a bit like the "I saw a woman scream at a man for holding the door open myth"...
Ie - utter bollocks and the daughter/bi thing a red herring. I suppose antifeminists need to change tack at the moment.

Back to the OP!

Yes and no .
Yes in the sense that I worry that all sorts of issues may be flying 'under the radar' while we're all so distracted. BUT this is such a serious issue - the obliteration of women both legally and intellectually that we can't stand by while men (and politicians) redefine us. As so many have said, if there is no legal biological definition of a woman then all of our legal protections disappear.

Do you think feminists should support all women, no matter that their choices and how detrimental those choices are to other women?

Handmaiden is a ridiculous, catch- all term put out with the aim to end to all debate. It is used to ridicule a woman whose opinions you don't agree with.

"Rape apologist" , "victim blaming" , "peddling rape myths" "supporting the prostitution lobby" for example are clear and unambiguous terms.

"Handmaiden" is not. It means nothing other than the person shouting it disagrees with the other person.

It also gets used very selectively and irrationally. I recall a thread a while back about Miley Cyrus' increasingly sexist and sexualised videos- it was the one where she was dressed in skimpy baby clothes and cavorting in a cot.

I do not use the word "handmaiden" but I did state that as one of the most successful women in pop she was colluding with a particularly nasty form of sexual exploitation and objectification and would fit the definition But no, turns out Cyrus was just a victim of the patriarchy and was in no way to be held culpable for appearing in her vile video.

Yes. It's difficult because obviously everything else is important, but without the ability to name the 51% of the population affected, what do we do.

(There's a thought, how about "The 51%"?)

I don't really understand why you've made the thread all about your daughter, luner? And I still don't get who called her a handmaiden and why, though I also don't really understand why that's relevant...nobody here has called your daughter that, and most certainly nobody here has spat in your daughter's face, so no idea why we're being lectured as if we had!

It's a term I don't use often, if at all, as it is a slur, and I try not to name call, but it does describe a behaviour that sometimes one wants to describe. And that behaviour would be chucking women under the bus in favour of men.

In answer to Bert's original question, I go back and forward. There's no greater threat to women currently than the prospect of so many women's rights being removed and compromised, but at the same time, there is so much else still to discuss and work on. It's hard to focus.

As MNs former favourite politician would say, best to avoid ad hominem :)

So what do you plan to do guardian?
I for one would be relieved to see proper discussion at government level about the issues raised but how?
we have a female prime minister but she appears to be doing precisely nothing to address any of the issues.... beyond appointing other women to minister level ( and even then not enough) anyone in the US has zero chance with Trump. Most likely to go back in time not forward.