“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

JAP, I'm not insisting that though, I'm asking that because whenever I read anything about transient children it relies on "as a toddler he preferred dolls and prams" or "when she was 8 she refused to wear anything pink, and wanted to play football".
When I've watched adult trans women who buy into trans ideology, I read about how they like being wolf whistled at, they like putting on makeup, wearing sexy, revealing clothes.
I've read criticism of butch lesbians for not being proper women, because they're not feminine.
I have zero problem with anyone identifying as who they want to be, I think gender stereotypes are limiting and damaging. At the same time though, because people's individual internal senses are so diverse, there has to be a defining factor, and unless we rule that gender is all, and have some written record of all possible genders (which would be impossible, not to say ridiculous), then the most convenient way to separate some areas in society (like some female only spaces, sport etc) is to separate by sex.

So people who say

“ I don’t know what is it to feel like a woman /man, I just feel like me “

are more privileged than people who can say

“ I know for sure I’m a woman /man , I just can’t or won’t tell you why “

Is that right ? Can you explain that to me please ?

That said, I think those that claim they have no internal sense of self or gender/sex are speaking from a position of privilege. Your sense of self aligns with your external body so you don't see a problem.

I sometimes wonder if this is the case, but I am a woman who is not stereotypically feminine in appearance or actions, so I don't have a sense of myself as feminine.

If it's not about social conditioning/roles the other option is that it's about femaleness and so someone could feel their body isn't right, like anorexia or people who want their limbs amputated, but then that's body dysmorphia and treated as a mental health condition in other instances, so why is this different?

Or is there another explanation I'm missing because I'm struggling to understand.

Also to clarify, I'm not an apologist for the trans activists or movement necessarily. I am answering the question why transwomen are women and transmen and men.

I have really tried to understand the "trans women are women" argument.

There are articles like this everydayfeminism.com/2017/01/no-unfair-advantage-trans-athletes/?utm_content=bufferff218&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer that seem to offer valid scientific evidence that hormone levels of trans women athletes are the same as those of natal women, so they have no advantage.

I can read that and think maybe I am being a bigot by not wanting trans women competing in women's sport.

But, I still find it really difficult to accept I should just have to compete (amateur) with trans women when there is not the Olympic level of hormone testing at my local X Country competitions. So I find myself back at square 1, in that accepting trans women into women's sport cannot 'just happen' because the consequences for ME in my life are actually significant. And that's just in my amateur sporting activities, there is much more beyond Saturday X Country.

How did you come to believe this, glitched?

And may I ask, what about detransitioners? They believed in their gender identity, and then they didn't. So how much importance should we attach to something that, as you point out, can be used deceitfully, and also that can be used sincerely, but can change?

And thank you for the respectful engagement

Sorry that was a question to Glitched in response to this point

I think those that claim they have no internal sense of self or gender/sex are speaking from a position of privilege. Your sense of self aligns with your external body so you don't see a problem

Yes I agree gerbil. Usually if there is a mismatch between body and mind the treatment focuses on helping the mind come to terms with that. I'm interested why in transgenderism the treatment is to change the body. I don't really understand it.

Glitched, your argument just sounds like "the world according to trans".

You are arguing that a single male human's thoughts/beliefs/feelings about what it is to be female take precedence over the material reality, existence and humanity of actual females, millions of them.

Can you not see the glaring misogyny here?

I'm sorry but your argument begs the question "do you know where babies come from" ?

Alison, the privilage comes from the idea that because you don't recognise your sense of self because it aligns with your body, that other people don't have a sense of self where it is in conflict.

You are dismissing people based on your mind body alignment.

Trans women are trans women. The current DSM states they have a MH condition (I gather the NHS disputes this, I don't know where private practitioners in the UK stand) society on the whole has been kind and played along with the delusion to ease life for these people.

Things have gotten out of hand now and the public (especially religious and possessive men) will turn on this group (which is very sad) if the extremists carry on as they are. I can't think of anyone who wishes harm on any trans woman (None unlike natal women have been killed in the past year) living life quietly and respectfully.

Beachcomber, I recognise the inherent real world difficulty between those that claim they are trans and those that have a genuine conflict of self. As I said I am not a trans movement apologist.

I think a woman trapped in a man's body should be recognised as such and we should accept them as women.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought?

I used to believe this. My reasoning was as follows:

• Via the media, I was aware of research showing female traits in male brains and vice versa.
• I read accounts of people feeling 'trapped in the wrong body', which seemed plausible given the above.
• For a long time I gave it no further thought.

After looking into the topic I changed my mind. I no longer believe that transwomen are literally women.

So all of you who are biological women only know you're women because of your vaginas? Is there nothing else in you that makes you feel sure you're a woman?

Because I feel strongly that I would have known without my vagina which gender I was. If course it's possible that is due to socialisation but isn't socialisation as a gender what we're talking about anyway.

Who are we to tell people who they are anyway. Unless we want to control or suppress them which is I feel at the root of what is going on here.

I spent a lot of my life not fitting in, being unhappy with my body, with growing breasts, periods (still haven't got used to those tbh), with feeling my body didn't match me, knowing that me, the whole of me, didn't fit in anywhere.
My sense of me just being me took a long time to get to, and to know that, despite much of society's opinion, being me and not fitting female gender stereotypes is ok, but this is still not ok with lots of people, because I'm not doing "woman" correctly.
But yeah, privileged, whatever.....

Surely this question would best be answered by actual transwomen, who I highly doubt will feel welcome on this site.

I’m all for protecting women’s rights but comments comparing being trans to wanting to be an animal or telling transwomen they will never be proper women (whatever that means) are completely unnecessary and will certainly prevent any transwomen from commenting in fear of being torn apart.

If transing children was a thing when I was a child I dread to think how my life would have panned out.

And laugh at how stupid anyone is who talks about - oh I don’t know- something stupid like feelings.

Like women's feelings when they express concerns about being vulnerable in female spaces with biological males, you mean? No? Oh well, silly me.

Haarl, there are transwomen who regularly post in the feminist section, they have explained their stance, and they are as much at risk from current trans ideology as natal women.

“You are dismissing people based on your mind body alignment.”

I hope nobody is dismissing anybody.

I do struggle with “you can’t understand what it’s like to feel like a woman because you are one and I can’t tell you what it’s like to feel like a woman because you are one”.

I’d be really interested in any research - I was thinking the other day, if someone showed me clear evidence that gender is an innate quality and it's possible to be born with a gender that doesn't match your genitals, I'd completed change my views on the whole subject.

Me too. I’m open to scientific explanations. I’m willing to consider i might change my mind on this - again. I might be on the wrong side of history.

In the meantime - there are all the pisstakers, there is biology and the fact females are being sidelined in sports, roles created for women etc. If these transwomen could have just lived quietly trying to get by as a woman - i doubt I’d have noticed or had much to say on the subject.

Haarl there are actually several transwomen who post here. At least two of them have no problem acknowledging that they are not women and never will be.

Who are we to tell people who they are anyway. Unless we want to control or suppress them which is I feel at the root of what is going on here

Do you ever think that is what's happening when trans women tell women what being a woman feels like? Because when people tell me I don't understand because I'm "cis" gendered, that's what I feel - that I'm being told who I am.

We never have angst filled debates over "what is a man?" and "are trans men men?"

Do you wonder why that is?

“I’m all for protecting women’s rights but comments comparing being trans to wanting to be an animal or telling transwomen they will never be proper women (whatever that means) are completely unnecessary and will certainly prevent any transwomen from commenting in fear of being torn apart.”

This is a more measured version of the “you are all vile transphobes” silencing grenade so often thrown into discussions. Please don’t!

So all of you who are biological women only know you're women because of your vaginas? Is there nothing else in you that makes you feel sure you're a woman?

I only know I'm a woman because of my biology and the consequences of that (periods, pregnancy, sexual harassment etc.) - what else makes you feel like a woman if it's not biology-related?