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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

“Transwomen are women”

599 replies

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 09:33

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

OP posts:
Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 11:07

Quickchange- I know I can’t police the thread, but can you possibly take that discussion to another thread please? I really want to get to bottom of the “literally a woman” thought process......

OP posts:
allegretto · 27/12/2017 11:07

Lots of people are trapped in bodies they don't identify because of weight/class/disability.

I don't understand what you mean.

Beachcomber · 27/12/2017 11:08

Glitched I have heard the "internal sense of self" idea before, it is sometimes described as the "womanly essence" argument.

Surely though this "internal sense of self" is about femininity rather than femalesness. Femaleness is biological. If you don't have the biology you are not female. Femininity is about sex roles, clothes, behaviors, etc - all things that it is possible to identify with regardless of one's sex.

So for me the internal sense of self idea works fine for femininity but is irrelevant to femalesness. Therefore it is a perfectly good argument to back up the statement "transwomen are feminin" but useless when it comes to arguing that transwomen are female (woman means adult human female).

MrsKCastle · 27/12/2017 11:10

Bertrand thank you for the thread. I am also genuinely interested to understand the thinking behind this.

Glitched, thanks for your comment. Can I ask if you believe that everyone has this "philosophical internal sense of self"? How do you experience it? And do you think it remains constant or can it change?

Quickchange1 · 27/12/2017 11:11

bertrandandRussel
Yes if course.
I've made my point and will wait and see if anyone does offer up anything for the 'literally women' debate

Glitched · 27/12/2017 11:11

A woman doesn't have to be feminine to be a woman.

Addictedtothisbloodyforum · 27/12/2017 11:13

No trans women will ever be women ! They are a man who choose to dress as a women and no matter how much surgery they get they will NEVER EVER BE A BLOODY WOMEN !!! This topic is so old and boring now

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 11:14

“A woman doesn't have to be feminine to be a woman.”

Of course not. But what does a woman have to be to be a woman?

OP posts:
Glitched · 27/12/2017 11:14

Yes everyone has an internal sense of self. Mostly it doesn't manifest as a problem unless the external self conflicts with the internal self. Where it conflicts I think we should default to the internal self rather than the external self.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 11:15

A woman doesn't have to be or do anything. A woman is a woman regardless of action.

ALLIS0N · 27/12/2017 11:15

If I find a topic boring I don’t read it. Or post on it .

Because other people might find it interesting .

And I believe in free speech.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 11:16

So “literally” is the wrong word?

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 27/12/2017 11:20

glitched, do you see any parallels between this "internal sense of self" and the concept of having a soul?

I don't have a sense of either, FWIW, and struggle to see the difference between a religious person telling me I do have a soul, and someone like you telling me I do have an internal sense of gender. They're acts of faith, not of fact. What do you think?

SciFiFan2015 · 27/12/2017 11:21

@Foodylicious I'd be interested in some recommendations of articles to read please. I know that you are unwilling to do this but it could be very helpful and avoid confirmation bias (I think that's the term for choosing articles that align with what you are already thinking).
For some of us it might provide a challenging read and alternate viewpoint. Perhaps you could suggest several and this then would give us a good starting point for our own onward research thank you.

terfing · 27/12/2017 11:22

Thanks for engaging @Glitched Smile

Is there a test that can find out one's innate gender?

For example, how would a severely mentally-disabled adult communicate or know their gender?

Beachcomber · 27/12/2017 11:23

A woman doesn't have to be feminine to be a woman.

Of course not. I'm a woman but I'm not feminin.

I'm not arguing that femininity has anything to do with femaleness. I'm arguing that femininity is something one can identify (or not) with. Female is something one biological is.

I'm saying that your idea of an internal sense of self works for femininity but not for femalesness. Femaleness is not an internal sense of self; it is a material state of physicality.

One's internal sense of self is irrelevant to what one's biological reality is.

A bit like how an anorexic person's internal sense of self is that they must lose weight when their biological reality is that they need to gain weight.

CloudPerson · 27/12/2017 11:23

Internal sense of self usually relies on stereotypes doesn't it?
Im not sure I could define how I felt like a woman, because truth be told, I don't, I am just me, who happens to have female anatomy.

Didn't the whole "transwomen are women" originate from TRAs with an agenda? There are well respected transwomen who don't share this view, so it's not coming from the whole of the trans community.

JAPAB · 27/12/2017 11:24

Surely people are just deciding that "woman" is no longer a label referring to a biological reality but a chosen identity?

People can have an inner sense of being male or female that may or may not coincide with whether or not they have a particular chromosome. Not sure how much ofan element of "choice" is involved here though. Changing your thinking from the labels denoting the chromosomes, to the labels denoting that inner sense is what it is I reckon. Identity issues can be very important to people,

MrsKCastle · 27/12/2017 11:27

I have an internal sense of self. I have an idea of what it means to be 'me'. I guess that includes a sense of what it is like to be physically me, to exist in my own body. I don't think that I have any other sense of gender, only biology.

I can understand how someone with gender dysphoria feels like they're in the wrong body. That must be incredibly difficult. The bit I struggle with is accepting that the 'internal sense of self' is somehow more valid or true than the biology.

Another question, Glitched, I hope you don't mind. If a male is perfectly comfortable with their physical body- so no gender/sex dysphoria- but feels that they are a woman, would you accept that unconditionally? I'm asking because as I say, I can understand the 'born in the wrong body ' narrative better than I can the 'I'm a woman who's happy with her ladydick' one.

JAPAB · 27/12/2017 11:29

Internal sense of self usually relies on stereotypes doesn't it?

That is what a lot of people insist, because it makes disputing trans people easier. Although it may of course even be true in some cases. Maybe there are people whose experience can be correctly described as them concluding that they are men/women because they like blue/pink/football/romcoms/whatever. Bit of a leap to assume this of all, and make this integral to the entire concept.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 11:29

Because everyone of course has the right to their own feelings and opinions. They don’t have the right to their own facts. And the word “literally” suggests that there are incontrovertible facts to support the statement.......

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 27/12/2017 11:32

I would like to know too. So I can tell my daughter's in a way that doesn't just reinforce stereo types and running the risk of making them feel there's something wrong with them.

Sadly from appearances they are eradicating themselves. If biology is meaningless then just who are they transitioning to? You can't be something that no longer exists.

irretating · 27/12/2017 11:34

People can have an inner sense of being male or female that may or may not coincide with whether or not they have a particular chromosome.

The wish is the father of the thought.

Beachcomber · 27/12/2017 11:37

Yes everyone has an internal sense of self. Mostly it doesn't manifest as a problem unless the external self conflicts with the internal self. Where it conflicts I think we should default to the internal self rather than the external self.

Thank you for putting your position across clearly in the above post.

I disagree with you when it comes to situations in which humans are categorized according to their biology. That is in situations where they are categorized according to their external self. This includes the classifying of humans as "women" (female) and "men" (male) for all and any social or political reasons and of course all situations of sex segregation.

So really I disagree with you in any situation which involves interaction with others. I don't believe that TIMs have the right to impose their internal sense of self on women and insist that it be treated as an external material reality that exists for others.

And that is before we get into the fact that their internal sense of self is an appropriation of my material reality and humanity.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 11:38

I wouldn't accept anything unconditionally as people can lie, cheat and manipulate a situation to their advantage. The internal sense of self has limitations in the real world as their is no way to distinguish between people with conflict and people that are being deceitful.

That said, I think those that claim they have no internal sense of self or gender/sex are speaking from a position of privilege. Your sense of self aligns with your external body so you don't see a problem.

I am an atheist by the way. No soul or religion involved. It's about the philosophy of mind.