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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

“Transwomen are women”

599 replies

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 09:33

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:08

"whether biology (as we currently know it) is seen as the be all or end all"

Biology is by definition the "be all or end all" of biological distinctions Ike male/female.

Anyone who doesn't realise this can't have studied any biology at all.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:09

So cote- no point in discussing/listening?

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:09

"so then from your perspective there’s no room for discussion or any understanding of others perspectives."

Insisting on ignoring dictionary definitions isn't a perspective.

It's willful ignorance.

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:10

I have no problem listening. Go for it.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:12

Cote- okay I get you. So trans people are just deluded and let’s not listen to their experience?

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:13

Sorry I'll have to amend that: I have no problem listening to logical and rational arguments. I cba with "born in the wrong body because God sometimes makes a mistake when putting souls into bodies" nonsense.

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:15

I'm happy to listen to their experiences which I'm sure will all be fascinating.

Still won't make a male a woman because he would like to be one, though.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:16

I don’t think there’s much mileage in this discussion. As like I said either we think biology (as we know it now) is all there is - or we don’t.
There is evidence by the way that autism is impacted on by more testosterone in the womb and that that can be researched by finger length discrepancy between 2nd and 4rh finger. The scientific evidence for these things is in the foothills.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:17

Cote you don’t sound very empathic.

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:21

Oh you think so? Damn, that was a strong argument. You win Hmm

If you can't put together a coherent argument without ad hominem, you should not be in this debate. Stop wasting my time.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:23

Which bit? The bit about autism and male hormones and finger length? Or the bit about lack of compassion?

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 23:34

Look up "ad hominem" in a dictionary and the answer shall be clear.

While you're at it, look up "female" as well. See if biology is the be all & end all or not.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:37

Thank you cote. Like I said (at least with you) there’s no point in a discussion - these threads have gone on and on and there’s no possible room for movement- so pointless?

FloraFox · 27/12/2017 23:39

What is the connection with finger lengths?

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:40

(And I imagine you have little interest in the idea of over exposure to testosterone in the womb in autism- which is over represented in trans phenomenon and anorexia- both which experience difficulties in identity development)

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:42

Flora I know it’s weird but there’s some evidence that over exposure to testosterone in the womb makes a difference and that males and females have differences in whether second or fourth finger is longer and hormone exposure in the womb can change thisz

TheUterati · 27/12/2017 23:42

FarFrom - can you provide a definition that meets the criteria I set out in my post on page 15?

FloraFox · 27/12/2017 23:47

Do you have a link to this evidence? Is it related to being trans?

vwlphb · 27/12/2017 23:48

What is it that you think is helpful to discuss FarFrom?

I mean, I can sit and listen to a Christian tell me that God speaks to them about how they should live their lives or gives them comfort or whatever and although I can’t claim to understand how that operates at any level, I can accept that it’s a sincerely held belief and that’s fine. I can respect their personal religious traditions and refer to them in certain ways (Pastor, Father) as a courtesy. I won’t however endorse and validate their belief as objective truth if they ask me to. Frankly, that’s not even a discussion I am interested in getting into as I can’t see how it can be resolved one way or the other, nor does it need to be - we can do-exist peacefully while holding fundamentally different beliefs.

The only discussion I feel is worth having is when one person attempts to impose their internal belief on another, such as insisting that it’s taught in schools as truth, or should restrict my access to services that I want, or place me (or others like me) at a disadvantage.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 23:53

Flora no I have no evidence to it linking to trans. I could link to studies yes. The evidence as far as I know is more linked to autism and that is within the parameters of extreme male brain theory linked to autism. So I don’t think it’s irrelevant. And it is linked to whether you have been exposed to more male or female hormones.

vwlphb · 27/12/2017 23:57

I haven’t read it lately but wasn’t that finger-length theory related to lesbianism, not transgender?

FloraFox · 28/12/2017 00:07

I’m confused as to the point you are making FarFrom

I have 2nd and 4th finger lengths more typical of a male and I’m neither male, autistic, lesbian nor trans.

FarFrom · 28/12/2017 00:12

Why are you confused flora? Science is not about individuals. (Although actually individuals interest me)

KnittingNancy2017 · 28/12/2017 00:12

The trans people I know weren't particularly fussed about the gender stereotypes (none of the "I loved pink so must have been a girl" thing).

They just don't like how they're treated by others as their birth sex and want to be treated how the other sex are. (But then, the trans people I know well are all FtM except for one, who us

XmasRat · 28/12/2017 00:13

LassWiTheDelicateAir - I'm sorry. I shouldn't have posted. The OP asked for someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? and seemed to indicate this wouldn't turn into a dog fight by saying I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

Clearly, this hasn't happened and this is all getting a bit pointless. For what it's worth, yes. I think national identity is subjective and personal and isn't based on melanin, which you clearly don't think. I think being a woman is also subjective and personal and isn't just based on the quality of your vagina which you also clearly don't think.

I don't think this conversation can go any further. We don't really have any common ground, and there's no real point in our wasting our time yelling about how someone is wrong on the internet.

Have a lovely evening and great new year. Smile