“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

although under the 2004 act, the person is issued with a new birth certificate, erasing any record of the birth-sex

This is very interesting. Because adopted children are NOT issued with a new birth certificate giving their adoptive parents as their birth parents. It’s considered wrong for there to be an official document that is in fact a lie.

Adopted children have a short birth certificate ( which everyone has) which just gives their name and DOB. But the longer document which is similar to a full birth certificate ( needed for passport, jobs etc ) is entitled “ an extract from the adopted children’s register “.

Adopted children and their families are officially not allowed to erase the past.

My response OP was that beyond them wanting to appear as and function as women in society, it's actually none of our business to pick them apart. It doesn't matter to anyone, except maybe their doctor and their partner, how their biology functions.

So you accept that this is a state of affairs which can only exist in a society which has strict sex roles (known as gender) for people to conform to, and that in a society where such gender roles did not exist, the entire concept would make no sense, in which case there is no way that “being trans” can be an innate quality of a person?

I find the concept of "self-identity" very similar to the concept of "knowledge of God".

Many people adamantly insist that God is real because they have personal knowledge of God. They hear God. They speak to God. They "just know" God exists. They read evidence of God's existence in signs and happenings in their lives. They congregate with others who also feel certain of the existence of God, and agree that their experiences match up.

I attended church through my early teens because a lot of my friends were Christian. I really wanted to share in this experience of "knowing" God and struggled mightily for years to grasp what seemed to come naturally to others. In the end I just gave up. There was no way for me to understand what they were talking about, and nobody could clearly define for me what form their "knowledge of God" took, nor their experience of being "spoken to" in a way that made any clear sense. I had zero experience of this internal knowledge of God that they all claimed. I decided that my position was that I respected religious people's right to feel that they have some special knowledge that I don't, while not believing in the existence of God myself.

In general this works fine as I get along with my life while they get along with theirs.

I find the concept of gender identity very similar. I just don't get it. I understand I am a woman because of my body and my experiences in society based on my body. Outside of that, I have no internal sense of 'womanhood'. I present in a reasonably stereotypically feminine way, but this is largely a response to society's approval. If I were a hermit in the wilderness, I would never shave my legs or wear makeup again and I wouldn't feel less like myself for it (in fact I would feel more like myself).

But in the same way that my respect for religious folk to live their lives based on their beliefs extends to the point where they try to impose their beliefs on my life (eg religious prohibitions against abortion, religious instruction in state schools), I will not accept that someone else's internal "knowledge" of something fundamentally indefinable and unproveable is the basis for making public policy.

Biological men can sincerely "feel" that they are women (whatever that is supposed to mean) and biological women can "feel" they are men, and most of the time I'm sure we can rub along fine. I don't share their belief, but I also don't think they're insane or mentally ill, and I'll defend their right to freedom from discrimination. But when it comes to matters of public policy, I simply do not accept beliefs as more important than material reality.

Excellent post vwlphb.

You know I would really like more focus on women in these discussions. Very often it's all about trans people's feelings, rights, perspective, etc but almost never is the focus on girls and women despite us being 51% of the population.

Here is the state of affairs as far as women are concerned. Society has said to us for centuries that we females are the sex class "girls and women". Society has told us that what defines us as that sex class is our female bodies. We have been told that because of our bodies we are lesser than men. We have been killed, raped, burnt, mutilated, enslaved, abused, assaulted, exploited, denied education, denied political, financial and social rights because of our female bodies. We have been told that all of this is the natural order because our female bodies are inferior to male bodies. In short we have been told that our female bodies matter. A lot.

And now the same society which has done the above to us and continues to do the above to us is now also saying the totally contradictory "actually your female bodies count for shit".

We know it's not true. We know our female bodies don't count for shit because the oppression we live on account of our female bodies happened and is still happening. We know it's not true because we know where babies come from.

And to add insult to injury society is also saying to us that we exist not as our own material lived fucking reality as human females, as people but as an idea in a man's head. We are a thought in a man's head. We do not exist independently. Except that is when men are killing and harming us due to their hatred of our material reality.

And we are preached to and admonished because we think all this is important and that we should have a say it all.

Fuck off. Really just fuck off.

I have never heard an argument as to how transwomen are women that isn't a total erasure of females and a denial of our oppression at the hands of male supremacist society.

I love your posts Beach. Always so glad to see you on a thread. Totally agree with your last.

Humans can be either male or female. It's conceivable that a mind and body could get mixed up somewhere in the wiring.

Not really.

There appears to be an assumption here that male and female minds are completely distinct from each other. There are minor differences in certain structures of the brain but when it comes to personality, demeanour and interests and the other things that make up our identities, we're all a patch-work, a mosaic. If gender identity is a real thing then there are approximately 7.5 billion of them.

Following on from that point, there isn't a distinct female mind. We have distinct female bodies with distinct features, but our minds have tremendous variation.

It's not conceivable that a female mind could end up in a male body, because female minds are not one homogeneous lump.

When it comes to matters of public policy, I simply do not accept beliefs as more important than material reality
Agree entirely

Beach
Tottaly agree. Wish I was as eloquent.

Thank you Ereshkigal.

irretating
Ditto

Nineteenagain, it's righteous anger. I'm so angry. It clears the head.

theuterati cracking good analysis there.

Beach I salute you

Thank you for that post beach it has helped me to clarify my feelings on this subject. if I may I will use it to help explain my stance on this ridiculous matter.
yet again, as I see it, it's all about men eroding our identity and importance. it just ever stops does it?

No matter how many times this thread is repeated, I learn something new each time.

to all the brilliant posters here.

beachcomber your posts on this thread are brilliant - I am saving them into the notes on my phone so I can go back and read them again! You are articulating everything I feel about this issue.

XmasRat

LassWiTheDelicateAir - that's totally your right. Personally, I would be miffed, however, if you were to tell me my husband was not Scottish and never could be Scottish because of the colour of his skin because only white people can be Scottish.

What on earth are you on about? Are you suggesting I said anything of the sort?

Which I think is why some people find it unpleasant if you tell trans women that they cannot be women because your definition is not the same as theirs

So you think being a woman is no different from appropriating Scottish culture (whatever that might mean to you and your husband) and has no basis in biological, objective reality?

‘...this ridiculous matter.
yet again, as I see it, it's all about men eroding our identity and importance.’

Is that all you see?

I responded early on and it does not seem to have changed although there has been more room for listening. But basically it seems to boil down to whether biology (as we currently know it) is seen as the be all or end all or not. People seem to fall on one side or the other and there is little room for movement beyond this.
However the above quote and others- I do think lacks compassion. That may be shot down as shutting down debate- but I do think it does.

Where's the compassion for women, farfrom?

You're not shutting down debate if you engage with any challenges to your points. But I'd really like to unpack this particular one a bit if you don't mind.

Biology IS the be all and end all if you are trying to prevent oppression due to biology. Which feminists are. Or should be.

Yes, biology is the be all and end all because the distinction between men and women is a biological distinction and nothing else.

Okay- so then from your perspective there’s no room for discussion or any understanding of others perspectives. So like I said it seems these discussions are pointless?

By the way I’m as atheist as they come.