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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

International Men's Day?

130 replies

DreamGhost · 24/12/2017 22:07

Firstly I see this was back in November so I apologise if there has been a post already, did have a quick look and couldn't see anything!

This picture appeared on my Facebook timeline. Is it an actual thing? I feel like there's so much wrong with these statistics, like they're only telling half the story.

International Men's Day?
OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 12:06

“I think it's for the best in the name of getting society to recognise both sexes as equal.“

Do you think they are?

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 27/12/2017 12:15

No I don't think both sexes are equal, I know they are but it is not about what I believe but what men think and how the see themselves?

You know if a group imagine they are superior then the idea of equality is not only seen an alien concept but perceived as a step down.

makeourfuture · 27/12/2017 12:29

Patriarchy is Capitalism. Capitalism is Patriarchy.

Men are judged on how financially successful they are.

Women are now judged by that criteria as well. In addition to all of the older criteria.

CountFosco · 27/12/2017 12:56

Best stats I could find says 6 prostitutes are murdered a year in the UK. There tends to be difficulties getting good figures though, there may be more (murdered prostitutes) on the missing person's list that we don't know about. 81% of proatitutes report experiencing violence when working, in comparison ~1.4 % of people experience violence at work and most of those don't get badly hurt.

BatShite · 27/12/2017 14:45

I don't think anyone denied that male people are often victims of male violence. But still, using the term male violence brings out a shitload of NAMALTs..as if we don't know that ffs! If all men were like that then all women would be fucking dead given they kill us at a disturbing rate.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/12/2017 15:08

Nobody has denied the accuracy of the statistics- it is the way they are being presented which is the issue.

Other than suicide and workplace fatalities they are connected to male violence. Of course a man who beats up another man is going to get a stiffer sentence than a female shoplifter.

Women do not get involved in violent crime in the way men do. Men need to address what makes them violent. I suspect socilaisation and growing up in an environment where violence is normal plays a big part.

MrGHardy · 27/12/2017 18:31

"I view international men's day the same way I viewed heterosexual pride day."

Firstly this, and secondly who or what is the main cause of all those things listed. Hmmmmmm...I think these people never think it through.

Slarti · 27/12/2017 19:40

Is it right that most of men's problems are caused by themselves and self inflicted?

Isn't that victim blaming? If another man attacks me is it accurate or fair to say it was self inflicted?

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 19:52

“Isn't that victim blaming? If another man attacks me is it accurate or fair to say it was self inflicted?”

It’s not victim blaming to say that the overwhelming majority of violence men suffer is inflicted by other men!

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 21:34

SOME men are violent

SOME men are the victims of violence by men

The two groups are not necessarily the same people!

SOME women are violent

SOME women are the victims of violence by women. That doesn't make it ok.

Slarti · 27/12/2017 22:07

It’s not victim blaming to say that the overwhelming majority of violence men suffer is inflicted by other men!

I agree. But that's not what was said. "Self inflicted" implies rather strongly that the victim is at fault.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/12/2017 22:13

Self inflicted is a dreadful term to use.

SOME men are the victims of violence by men or more accurately the majority of people who are victims of violence suffer it at the hands of men.

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 28/12/2017 03:16

How curious, when I said, men's problems are self inflicted, I was actually referring to men's death in their work place and car accidents and things like that..

You know, where men throw caution to the wind?.
Where men disregard safety precautions because they hinder production in the work place or take unnecessary risks when driving their cars because they love speed and showing off.

Women think faster than men, that is why you see so few women taking the risks men do, cos they have time to work out the consequences before they leap into the abyss.
: )

What does Status Manhood mean to men?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/12/2017 04:14

How curious, when I said, men's problems are self inflicted, I was actually referring to men's death in their work place and car accidents and things like that..

Work place deaths are far more likely to be caused by a failure in safety systems or inadequate / non-existent systems or poor management and cost cutting than derring do.

This is particularly the case in construction projects in non EU countries, and particularly so in the case of Gulf states' vanity projects.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/12/2017 04:16

The deaths are caused by the , almost certainly male, employers but to call the deaths of the workers "self-inflicted" is vile.

makeourfuture · 28/12/2017 06:48

I was actually referring to men's death in their work place

Emloyee safety is far down the list of business concerns.

And it could be said that most safety efforts are in fact box ticks to show to court.

SubordinateThatClause · 28/12/2017 07:17

We've already had several centuries of men's days haven't we?!

IcedCocoa · 28/12/2017 07:43

There was a construction death on the new Queensferry crossing near Edinburgh, when it was being built. I cannot remember the details, but it was clearly an accident, but it was caused by the unintended and accidental consequences of the actions of other workers, who had clearly acted properly with accidental and fatal consequences . I remember thinking this was tragic for all concerned.

It seems trite to start arguing this and incidents like it are somehow women’s fault. Or that there had been inadequate thought amongst the men concerned.

In this instance, the causes were height, heavy machinery, and human error. We all make mistakes, but it is more likely to be men in the occupations which are dangerous. Trade unions fought in the 19th century to keep women out of them; after both world wars, women were sent back home. So, we need to look at why these occupations are predominantly male.

Women may be statistically safer in their retail, call centre, service industry roles, but again, why are these female jobs? They are often part-time, lower paid etc.

You could unpick all of these headline stats for a nuanced and constructive debate benefitting both sexes. Posters on here have started to do that, and it is interesting and helpful reading. The meme doesn’t do that, it has a ‘what about the menz’ tone.

What about the menz? As others have said, patriarchy hurts men too. Feminists have sons, fathers, brothers, husbands. None of us want men to be hurt, in despair, victims or perpetrators. But neither do we want ourselves to be. It is that simple.

Slarti · 28/12/2017 08:21

Don't think anyone has blamed women Iced, but nor is it appropriate to label male victims of other males - be that industrial neglect or intentional violence (or of pure accidents, as in your example) - as "self inflicted".

IcedCocoa · 28/12/2017 08:50

I thought the tone of the meme was picking up on and responding to International Women’s Day. In a kind of men have it as bad as or worse than women, why are women making a fuss way. And that women are not paying enough attention to men’s suffering. Granted, this is not saying women cause any of these things, but there is surely an implication that by having International Women’s Day, women are contributing to silencing discussion about harm done to men.

I don’t think I said at any point male violence was self-inflicted.

Idreamofalandrover · 28/12/2017 08:52

Why is this even relevant on the feminist board?

deydododatdodontdeydo · 28/12/2017 09:02

Why is this even relevant on the feminist board?

It's not relevant at all - most men don't even know International Men's day exists, as evidenced by all the tweets on IWD asking if there's an IMD.
And answered so dedicatedly by Richard Herring every year.
It's just not relevant full stop.

BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 09:19

It’ relevant because it’s all part of the “nobody cares about men-especially feminists” narrative.....

deydododatdodontdeydo · 28/12/2017 10:15

What narrative? Most men aren't aware of it because there's very little need for it.
Yes there are some issues that affect men, but if they were that important, IMD would be more of a thing and it isn't.
Only a few vocal MRAs create this narrative, and very few people listen to them.

BertrandRussell · 28/12/2017 10:35

“Only a few vocal MRAs create this narrative, and very few people listen to them.”

Really? I have been on loads of threads on here where people have used the sort of figures on that meme to show that a)feminists hate men and b) things are just as bad for men and worse in some circumstances........

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