Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I don't know if it has the legs to sustain a third thread, but kudos to perfectly for the impeccable timing of finally answering a question on the second to last post before the thread filled up. Genius.

here is the second thread

As I am now the OP, I wonder if this gives me the right of veto over the resolutions that we apparently made in the Great Accords of 2017?

The trouble is she might actually believe she can get pregnant.

I veer from derision to pity and back again. It's very confusing.

From the Guardian article posted by Assigned.

All explained at the time as a tomboy phase that she might eventually grow out of.

Girl hates dresses and likes football. Girl is told that these are boy activities and that she'll grow out of it one day. Girl doesn't grow out of it. Girl decides she's a boy. Family knew all along because girl continued to resist repeated attempts at getting her to conform to femininity.

Apparently it's transphobic to say a TIM can't get pregnant, because most women can't get pregnant right at any given moment so Lily is the same as most women

A women's officer who is offended by mention of female biology.

I remember back in the 80s having to defend the position of women's officer against men who either thought they could do it better or who wanted to have a laugh. Now they ride in, with fanfare, on Trojan horses.

My opinion of Lily is that he's not terribly bright and is being manipulated by people who are much more media savvy. The way he has been lauded in the media, the pro bono SHL at school, the speaking engagements he's been offered, despite being almost incapable of stringing a sentence together...

The sad thing is that he will fuck up, as all young adults fuck up believing himself to be untouchable and he will be dumped for the next sensation. What he will have done is to move the Overton Window which will make all other ridiculous statements seem tame and reasonable in comparison.

Having said that, I really hope I'm wrong, because anyone using such an obviously fucked up and not real bright kid in this way is sick.

This is what Lily is referring to, not saying I agree with the ethics but it puts her comments in context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/04/babies-born-transgender-mothers-could-happen-tomorrow-fertility/

Lily is so dim he strikes me as the kind of person who would think all cats are female and all dogs are male, so the fact that he claims to think he can one day give birth is unsurprising given how thick he appears to be.

No TIM has been pregnant and it remains to be seen whether they even could be pregnant with a transplanted womb.

It is annoying me that there are calls for this untried surgery to be funded at the same time as millions of women are being impacted by cuts to IVF funding.

Anyone read Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishuguro? Maybe that's what will happen to women, we will just become hosts to grow wombs for men

LM posted about a man becoming pregnant either to encourage a discussion about the expanding boundaries of biological science or because it would really wind up some women.

Maybe LM was posting in good faith and has untapped scientific knowledge. On balance I reckon not.

I agree he is winding people up - same with the lesbian comment. But it will peak-trans lots of Labour supporters and make it harder for idiots MPs like Angela Rayner to back him, so I hope he carries on!

Outlandish claims in newspapers don’t make things true, if they did, we would be living on the moon right now. Unfortunately there are people who believe that humans can actually change sex - ignorance and stupidity have full reign over the internet.
If successful uterine transplants and pregnancies in Male bodies happen in my lifetime (I’m 52) I will eat my hat, coat and Shoes. The ethics alone will stop it happening.
They really do think that Womens’ bodies are just a receptacle , never mind the millenia of evolution of our reproductive systems, they can just cut and paste our wombs into male bodies. No, just No.

The ethics alone will stop it happening

I wish I could agree, but we are already sterilising & castrating healthy teenagers, which is ethically even more dubious, IMO.

A womb transplant is certainly possible. Much more complicated will be maintaining the pregnancy by inducing the right hormonal & immune environment. But it's doable (in theory anyway) and, if the medical establishment's capitulation to the trans lobby is anything to go by, it will probably be prioritised over improving obstetric care for women. There will be huge pressure from TRAs to do this, with millions of dollars thrown at the research.

ffs, that article has the following quote: "In July this year a British man made history by becoming the first to give birth. Hayden Cross, who was born a woman, gave birth to a baby girl after falling pregnant thanks to a sperm donor, however he had put a full sex change on hold."

So he wasn't a man. More Kool-Aid swallowing.

"Has anyone noticed that transwomen make the news for success in business, sport, the arts and politics, while transmen make the news for having babies?" anon
The Feminazgûl

There is no way that a male person will be carrying a child in our lifetime, or ever. Pregnancy is a calibrated process with incredibly complicated hormonal variations that are sex based. We might one day be able to gestate a foetus in an artificial uterus. And if we manage that, the rich TIMs will go that route. But we are decades upon decades from even thinking about this as a possibility.

I think we were on the same twitter thread earlier today LangCleg 😉
This is an interesting read
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371630/

I found this on the website of the International Society of Uterus Transplantation >>

“To this date only MRKH patients and hysterectomized women have been included in clinical UTx trial. New patient groups are demanding access to participation in clinical trials and in future clinical activities. The topic of possible future expansion of patients groups suitable for UTx was covered in symposium entitled “Future”. Moreover, the concept and research around bioengineered uterus was covered in a talk.”

I wonder which ‘demanding’ group this could be ? Answers on a postcard please 🙄

It's totally unethical to give a very young and disturbed individual hormones which could render them sterile and unable to have any sexual function in adult life. However, surely, surely, it's a step too far for almost every medic and scientist to impregnate a man with a womb transplant, given the huge risk to the baby? What about his pelvis, which would be far narrower than a woman's - how are they going to fix that so he can give birth? Or would it be CS from the off?

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/ryan-terry-torn-between-all-of-envy-lust-and-hatred/ Here's another grim item too. You'll need a strong stomach for this one. I see from Twitter that the appropriate authorities in the US have been notified, and a good job too.

Well yes, because the groups included in clinical trials are women, the ones who want in are men pretending to be women, which means that they won't be physiologically capable of maintaining a pregnancy. A friend of mine did their PhD in the mechanisms of maintaining a pregnancy and they are so delicate, especially in the early months that it is nigh on impossible to perform the hormonal juggling act when giving fake hormones.

What irks me slightly is that the money these 'other patient groups' want spent on their personal clinical trials could be better spent making the process easier for actual women. Just like the only group with pretty much automatic access to plastic surgery are trans women, while actual women are told that they can't have reconstructive surgery after mastectomy unless they live in the right area.

But hey... men.

I think we were on the same twitter thread earlier today LangCleg

I think we may well have been! I got myself a (very welcome) education (and breathed a sigh of relief).

miscarriage, fertility, pregnancy, gynaecological care (amongst other women specific specialities) are in dire need of improvement but yeah, sure lets make sure men can have babies.

The entitlement is astounding.

There is no way that a male person will be carrying a child in our lifetime, or ever.

I'm not so sure (I'm a doctor). With implantable, slow release hormones or a pump, I think you could reproduce the hormonal environment of pregnancy, and the immunosuppressants you'd need to support the uterine transplant would help damp down an immune response to the fetus. Whether it would be enough to get a human pregnancy to term is anyone's guess, but you can be sure that many researchers would love to manage it and they won't lack for funds.

I think it's naive to believe it will never happen. It's telling that Robert Winston - who is certainly no TRA - thinks that it will.

, surely, surely, it's a step too far for almost every medic and scientist to impregnate a man with a womb transplant, given the huge risk to the baby?

I'm afraid you have an overly optimistic view of my profession. The first obstetrician to manage this would be instantly world-famous and very rich. Doctors are just as susceptible to glory and cash as anyone else.

IVF is arguably a more complex process than maintaining a male pregnancy, yet we have managed that for 40 years. Surgically, transplanting a womb would be much easier than transplanting a heart or pancreas.

I'm not saying it will happen - there will be many unanticipated difficulties on top of the obvious ones. But I bet you that serious animal experiments are already happening- certainly in China and very possibly in the US.

Humanity is so fucked up. Seriously fucked up. I despair, I really do.

The first obstetrician to manage this would be instantly world-famous and very rich. Doctors are just as susceptible to glory and cash as anyone else.

Isn't the key here that they have to be successful?

Wouldn't the first person who did it who produced a dead baby be vilified across the board?