Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I don't know if it has the legs to sustain a third thread, but kudos to perfectly for the impeccable timing of finally answering a question on the second to last post before the thread filled up. Genius.

here is the second thread

As I am now the OP, I wonder if this gives me the right of veto over the resolutions that we apparently made in the Great Accords of 2017?

Many of you are not happy with the law as it currently stands and some have suggested that trans women should never be legally recognised as women. You say this goes against biological fact. This is a position I could never back as a 'trans inclusionary' feminist.

It does go against biological fact. There is not denying this?

I think male people should always be recorded as male people in crime stats. Given after 'transition' trans-identified males commit crime at the same rate that 'normal' male people do.

Sport, male people cannot compete against female people full stop. They can compete against male people if they c hose to, so I am not 'banning' them from sport. Just I recognize that male people have a huge biological advantage over female people and that even with lowered testosterone, there are still differences that would put the competing females on the back foot. If they do not wish to compete against male people, then they do not compete. Many people cannot compete for various reasons at professional level...its unfortunate but its tough luck really. Transmen..also should compete against male people if they are on testosterone. As this also gives them an advantage over other females and is basically..doping so they would be excluded anyway because of that.

Care homes and the likes, if the patient requests a woman, they should get a female person. Not a male person who is a woman in their head. This, I believe is covered already in the exceptions part of the GRA..hopefully this exception is being followed and there are not vulnerable females currently being attended to by male people when they asked for women.

Onto prisons, which I know was not in bertands list. Male people again should never be in with female people. If 'transitioned' they can go in solitary if they are in danger in the male prison. OR, given they are so many trans-identified males in prison (mostly for sexual crimes too) a trans wing or two in a prison would be sufficient. If this means families have to travel further to visit, again sorry its just tough. I am not willing to throw female people and potentially put them in danger under the bus to make it easier for male people and their families when there is another option.

Onto prisons, which I know was not in bertands list. Male people again should never be in with female people. If 'transitioned' they can go in solitary if they are in danger in the male prison. OR, given they are so many trans-identified males in prison (mostly for sexual crimes too) a trans wing or two in a prison would be sufficient. If this means families have to travel further to visit, again sorry its just tough. I am not willing to throw female people under the bus and potentially put them in danger to make it easier for male people and their families when there is another option

Last paragraph was meant to read

So in short basically, keep the GRC process as it is. Strengthen the exceptions and let compan ies know that they absolutely can refuse to send a male person to attend to a ill female if they request a woman, and so on.

The sports committee need to take their heads out of their arses and put their foot down. Its unfair to female people, and most people can see that. I don't think this will happen soon though, maybe when the olympics is on and male people are competing against female people and it comes to enough peoples attention.

Prisons also need to be told not to be putting male people in with females. I don't understand at all how the decision was made to do this. Though I do admit, when there was the petition about that Tara Hudson..I signed it This was back when I was in the 'let people live as they wish' stage, before my eyes were opened to the abuse. I also believed the petition and the papers that Hudson had had SRS. It was only when I was reading mumsnet that I found out that he had only had a boob job and still had a penis, which he was using on a regular basis, and that he had a record of very violent crimes. He did look very feminine in the pictures used in the press though so I do think he might have been in danger in a male prison, but the answer is definitely not to throw bepenised people in with the females!

He did look very feminine in the pictures used in the press though so I do think he might have been in danger in a male prison
I heard he was a big bruiser. Perhaps he was less at risk than a small, effeminate, bookish or timid man in prison?

Yeah he probably was less at risk than a small man tbh. This is another reason I think its very unfair to be moving 'transwomen' to female jails for their safety. Other men are at risk too. Smaller men, effeminate men, gay men, any man really who is not 'top dog'. Make male jails safer. Apparently there is more rape in male prisons than there is female victims out of prison. Thats extremely shocking if true and surely there is a way to stop this.

This was the pic in the press at the time

ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/46/2015/10/Tara-Hudson-Landscape-1.jpg

So you can see my point I would guess...

As I say though, it was made out he had had SRS and I was also in my 'shut up terf' mindset at the time. Its terrible looking back on it all and how I behaved. I was very much like perfectly actually..looking for anything I could twist to make these horrible transphobes look as bad as possible. I could not see any problems at all. when the scales were lifted, I was in shock tbh. And I not cannot understand how I could ever have been so blind to it all. I always considered myself a quite intelligent woman..I definitely was not a year or so ago..

Pic attached, if you don't want to click link. I avoid links as much as possible tbh so thought this may be better.

Batshite it takes guts to admit that stuff.

I think I only knew about all this ages ago because I had women who were much more knowledgeable than me in my life correcting my well-meaning gaffs.

Argh that pouty image is irritating! A quick haircut, some make up remover, with typical space-consuming male posture and body language would work wonders to change all that in a jiffy.

Yes, I agree that there are many vulnerable people in prisons.

If they aren't prepared to have separate wings for prisoners with mh issues, anxiety, ASC and other SN, those who are small, "feminine" looking, gay or otherwise more likely to be picked on by the macho gang culture that is prevalent among inmates in high security male prisons, why does being trans mean getting special treatment?

Everyone in prison should be protected from violence. Are they actually admitting "we can't keep prisoners safe in male prisons"? And passing the problem along so that female prisoners are even less safe in female prisons?

Wasn't Tara in prison for headbutting a barman and breaking all his teeth? I don't think Tara's any more vulnerable than the average man.

Wasn't Tara in prison for headbutting a barman and breaking all his teeth? I don't think Tara's any more vulnerable than the average man.

I would go further and say that Tara is actually more dangerous, violent and capable of defending himself/dominating and controlling others than the average man. Most men don't headbutt people or cause others serious injuries in their lives.

True.

That takes guts to admit, batshite. You're doing sterling work on the frontlines these past few days though!

I was also a knee-jerk supporter of trans rights. I thought it was great that Laverne Cox was in OITNB and had a pious rant about "this is what diversity looks like, you haterz" on facebook .

I had no idea.

I've never heard of the traffic going the other way on this road to Damascus, though - from gender critical to trans-affirming/uncritical/transactivist. Has anyone else?

IIRC, Tara had a long record of violence.

Weird isn't it that when the threat of rape or sexual assault is to a simulacrum of a woman they must be moved to a place where they make women unsafe by their very presence? And yet prison rape is still used as a joke in some quarters.

Tims like Tara absolutely deserve to be safe, what they don't deserve is to be safe within the women's estate. He would have been perfectly safe in solitary in the male estate.

Nope. Not one.

Sorry that was to SophoclesTheFox's question.

No Batshite what you were being was kind to a group you understood to be oppressed.

Never feel bad about that, it's part of your socialisation from birth as a female human. It is a hard truth to come up against, especially when you really don't want harm to come to any trans person, you just don't think it fair or just for their safety to be had at the expense of women and girls' safety.

No Batshite what you were being was kind to a group you understood to be oppressed.

Never feel bad about that, it's part of your socialisation from birth as a female human. It is a hard truth to come up against, especially when you really don't want harm to come to any trans person, you just don't think it fair or just for their safety to be had at the expense of women and girls' safety.

I still now have times where I sit and think..am I wrong? Am I kneejerking and thinking things are worse than they actually are. Have I suddenly turned into a bigot for no reason? I talk myself out of it easily enough though, but its always there in the back of my head. I do worry about the 'normal' transsexual people getting caught up in all of this bollocks still. But I don't see any other way out of it all than to say all trans-identified males are still male people. I have to fight with the 'be nice' side of me to even post on this topic tbh. Except for transkids. I have no problems posting on that topic as thats really really clear to me, blockers are child abuse. Its so clear to me as I was that kid who would have been put on blockers and grabbed them with both hands to stop the attention I was getting from grown men as soon as my tits came. It scared the shit out of me and anything that would have a chance of stopping that I would have done (I tried to cut my own tits off as a teen, seriously. Have scars now. Luckily the knife was not sharp enough, though I have huge scars). Thats why my views on transkid come across maybe a bit too strongly. I am fairly happy these days, have 2 kids who I would not have had if on blockers and such. Still sucks sometimes to be a woman and I do often think how much easier life would be as a man though. This does not make me trans. I am still a woman as I am an adult human female. Simple as.

I think there are a lot of us on mn who started from the premise of "these poor trans people, they have a tough life, let's make it as easy as possible for them".

I too used to read threads on here and think "what's the harm, I don't mind sharing a toilet with someone who is trying to pass as a woman". But for me it's been two things. Firstly I noticed the sport and that was just stupid. Then I realised that was I a child now, instead of being a tomboy, I would be in the group of girls others are now calling boys . That gave me quite a fright; the thought that me saying I hated my body, wanted to be a boy, didn't want breasts or periods, enjoyed maths and buidling lego and computer games would mean I had a male brain and should change my body to match.

That's bollocks.

I think there are a lot of us on mn who started from the premise of "these poor trans people, they have a tough life, let's make it as easy as possible for them".
God yes. I remember being totally baffled on a thread where a man was asking whether to go on a hen night as himself or his female alter ego. Some posters were really laying into him in a way that seemed very harsh at the time.
But then I got peak transed by a Facebook group because I got booted out as a "transphobe" for saying bio women and TW weren't identical. I was so upset I started to do research to see if I was in fact a bigot and that was that.
This was before all the Danielle muscato/Tara Hudson idiocy.

The Tara Hudson thread where rickroll dug up Taras profile on Hung Angels and the 7inch surprise boast also peak transed me more (they were Tia Star but it might have been taken down). It was so blatantly misleading the press were reporting Taras boob job as SRS

Then I realised that was I a child now, instead of being a tomboy, I would be in the group of girls others are now calling boys hmm. That gave me quite a fright; the thought that me saying I hated my body, wanted to be a boy, didn't want breasts or periods, enjoyed maths and buidling lego and computer games would mean I had a male brain and should change my body to match.

That was it for me too.

Just reading that thread (and other Tara Hudson ones) now QuentinSummers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2496368-Petition-to-stop-trans-woman-being-sent-to-make-prison?pg=2

MN is posting before I finish again..

God I feel sickened reading the TH thread.