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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

999 replies

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 14/12/2017 22:27

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

OP posts:
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Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 17/12/2017 12:46

Any lurker who sees my posts will know I have been rational, respectful, reasonable and considered throughout. And thanks to the lurkers who pipe up with 'me too!' as playground bullies kick the last remaining bit of life out of me.

Aaahh so lurkers that agree with perfectly and say 'me too' are A OK with perfectly

But lurkers who dont agree are siding with playground bullies who are literally kicking the above named poster to death...on an online forum

Datun · 17/12/2017 12:47

The articles posted are straw men because they represent an outlying case that no one can meaningfully defend, but they do not represent the hundreds of thousands of trans people who go about their life without even being noticed.

You see, calling them strawman, is going to make me want to post other stuff. And get accused of being vile.

One would seriously think that terfisaslur would be enough. Because that is specifically directed towards women who disagree with the trans-ideology.

So not outliers. Transwomen. Not regular predatory males. Transwomen. Not directed at men who do all the abusing, directed at women. Not just women. Feminists.

terfisaslur.com/

There are so many that they can be categorised. There are SIX sections in that website.

In terms of self identification. We virtually have that now. Because gender reassignment is a protected characteristic.

The proposed tweaking to the GRA doesn’t alter that. What it is has done is alerted women and the mainstream press to the loopholes being exploited in the original act.

And the fact that there are exemptions. They are woolly and not explicit enough. Because when the act was written, it was designed specifically for what is now known as genuine transsexuals.

No one thought it would allow men to compete alongside women, men to go to female prisons, men to take women’s specific jobs or be used to intimidate lesbians, or claim that a penis is a female organ.

No one that is except feminists, sorry ‘women purporting to be feminists‘.

A law designed to help men with gender dysphoria navigate life a little easier, has been exploited in a way that is so obviously damaging women, I can’t believe anyone can refute it.

It needs to be ripped up and re-written.

perfectly · 17/12/2017 12:48

Hang on am I a meringue or a sea lion? A seagull or a troll? A misogynist or a dangerous man in disguise? Forgive me for mistaking these words as insults.

IrkThePurist · 17/12/2017 12:50

You are ignoring the Equality Act, and women from other cultures who aren't as privileged or vocal as you.

LangCleg · 17/12/2017 12:50

expressing mainstream views

I refer you back to the YouGov polling I posted earlier in the thread, perfectly. You're expressing a minority position in strongly supporting the radical trans agenda (of which self-ID is a major plank):

Strongly support 10%
Tend to support 21%
Tend to oppose 20%
Strongly oppose 19%
Don't know 30%

Your strong support represents just 10% of the population. Yours is not a mainstream view.

(Lurkers - it's important to understand this. If you're feeling a bit concerned, you aren't alone, no matter how raucous Owen Jones and his pals get. You are legion. And opposing self-ID in no way throws transsexuals under the bus. In fact, it protects the rights they have already won for themselves from the inevitable backlash the extremists are bound to provoke by refusing to acknowledge even the most reasonable of concerns.)

SpartonDregs · 17/12/2017 12:52

The articles posted are straw men because they represent an outlying case that no one can meaningfully defend, but they do not represent the hundreds of thousands of trans people who go about their life without even being noticed.

CORRECT. They represent male predators that identify as women. Well done. You finally got there.

Datun · 17/12/2017 12:55

perfectly

You have been very calm. You haven’t plopped and run.

What you aren’t doing is saying much. You aren’t responding to points made.

I can’t help feeling as though you would like to say that trans rights trump women’s rights, because that would match up squarely with the way you seem to think.

But, perhaps you feel that is taking it too far.

You intimated upthread that a transwoman’s right to be called a woman, would trump a woman’s right to choose a female HCP.

( If that’s what you believe, that’s why you would be accused of misogyny.)

Is that what you believe?

AlabamaShakes · 17/12/2017 12:55

Are you still pissed from last night perfectly?

I said I'm a meringue. Not you.

Deliberately twisting words again aren't you?

DistaffSide · 17/12/2017 12:57

@DharmaLovesDrarry

Are there any examples of FtM trans trying to access places that are 'men' only? I wonder if that's what's needed for people to actually sit up and pay attention.

There is an example from Plymouth where men complained about a Transman in the changing room.

www.gaytimes.co.uk/news/35811/trans-man-banned-mens-changing-rooms-uk-gym/

AlabamaShakes · 17/12/2017 12:59

Interesting that there are no comments in support of the transman....

MrsKCastle · 17/12/2017 13:01

They are straw men because they do not represent any argument against self ID, Lets not forget we have not even started the consultation and GRA self ID is not in force, yet these things happened. Its a false equivalence to say they will happen more with GRA self ID, Self ID was not a defence for their actions. But this is verging into the debate on Self ID not the MN debating dynamics which is what this thread is about.

The discussion has come round to self-id because that's the big issue which divides radfems and trans allies. It's central to the question in the OP- why can't we work together? Because of a fundamental disagreement over self-id.

You say that the examples of predatory men can't be used to argue against self-id because they have happened before self-id has been brought in.

Well, firstly, in many many organisations self-id is already happening, in practice and/or policy. See the Labour Party, Girl Guides, many schools, many universities, the poster above who discuss allocating shares rooms. It has happened in places such as Target stores in America, where there have been examples of it being abused.

Secondly, I really do find it difficult to understand why you think self-id wouldn't make it easier for predatory men? Can you explain a little about how you think self-id will look? I am genuinely interested.

As far as I understand it, people will need to go through a fairly simple administrative process to change their gender on all their ID. They would then need to be treated as their new gender in every legal sense e.g.given access to the appropriate changing rooms, roles, facilities etc. They would have legal rights to not be discriminated against and this is what would enable say a male-born midwife to insist on being treated exactly the same as a female-born midwife. Such a midwife could therefore be presented to a woman who requested a female, as legally they must be treated the same. I do agree that the pregnant woman in such a situation could ask for someone else- and might be accommodated if it were possible. But that would then put the NHS in a difficult position because they'd be seen as enabling the woman's transphobia. In exactly the same way that currently a racist patient could request a white doctor, but it would be very difficult for the NHS to balance the needs of their patients and their employees.

The other thing is that self-id means there would be absolutely no need for any physical need to transition. Anyone could be a woman (or indeed a man) no matter what their appearance. So if you see someone in a toilet or changing room who is obviously male, they might have the right to be there. At the moment, if I walk into a toilet and see a male, I would most likely walk straight out again. But it may become more of a common sight. I won't know who has a right to be there and who doesn't. I wouldn't be able to ask as that would be transphobia (and anyway I'm not ever going to question someone who is stronger than me in what might be an isolated space). So most likely I'd still just walk out if I felt uncomfortable. Leaving me potentially without access to facilities.

Now I know that we can't say for sure how self-id will affect the type of person using 'single-sex' facilities. Perhaps all the predator men won't realise that they can now walk into women's toilets with impunity. But I'd like to be able to discuss that possibility without my worries being immediately dismissed and mocked.

DistaffSide · 17/12/2017 13:02

as playground bullies kick the last remaining bit of life out of me.

Seriously? I spent all of my senior schooldays enduring verbal abuse (and homophobic insults a large part of that). As a GNC female a lot of that that carried over into University. I don't consider that to have been 'actual violence' and for you to characterise this board like that is frankly insulting.

MentholBreeze · 17/12/2017 13:13

Hang on am I a meringue or a sea lion? A seagull or a troll? A misogynist or a dangerous man in disguise? Forgive me for mistaking these words as insults.

Alabama described herself as a meringue

sea-lioning is a well known internet meme for a style of discussion you were exhibiting.

Debbie, who agrees with you, described herself and you as seagulls and the rest of us as sealions

There was a bit of discussion about trolls, and prickly apologised for questioning you, but she'd been bitten by trolls before (ie. she felt you weren't a troll)

Misogynist - well, you said some misogynistic things, so if the cap fits..

Dangerous man in disguise - well, it's the internet, you could be anything. No one said that though, although they did speculate that you might be male.

There. Lets try and keep it honest - although this isn't twitter, people don't generally go back and delete posts, so actually the truth is there for anyone who wants to see it.

SpartonDregs · 17/12/2017 13:18

The trans-agenda is all about the use of rhetoric to appear vulnerable and a victim, with hostile death threats to anyone with an alternative point of view. Read anything on twitter and it is littered with so much verbose language you can hardly bear to read it. Being followed through on here. It's like they have some sort of script.

you write 'we are concerned with vulnerabilities of women and girls
They reply 'you want to deny the very existence of trans people'
You write 'no the implications to women and girls are quite frightening'
They reply 'I might kill myself/trans people might kill themselves/you literally want them to die'

It is a never ending cycle of deliberate baiting and restatement of a completely different issue to get people to shut up.

GuardianLions · 17/12/2017 13:30

My thinking is that the truth hurts. The Emperor's New Clothes is such a great story, because it lays bare a side of human nature - our need to 'pretend along' in order to not be seen as stupid, or unkind, or even disrespectful to those who have power over us.
Refusing to pretend along with everyone that:
-transwomen are not male, male biology is female, literal 'sex change' is possible, that male violence against women and girls is not endemic, that women and girls do not need refuge, protection and privacy from predatory men, that women do not need sex segregated sports in order to meaningfully take part, that women's biology plays a big role in her life and life outcomes, and so on....
Is not hateful, hostile, etc. But it will probably look hostile if you are heavily invested in pretending along...

SophoclesTheFox · 17/12/2017 13:31

Nobody here has insulted you, perfectly. Nobody here has kicked you or bullied you.

debbie, this will probably feel like a pile on, but I wasn't able to understand what you meant in your last post. I'm still not sure what your position is. Makes it hard to meaningfully engage.

Aquitania · 17/12/2017 13:48

Another de-lurker signing in!

Thank you MN Feminist Board, for all you do for women and girls. I have learned so much from reading here (and I have seen no hate).

AccioWine · 17/12/2017 14:06

Yet another de-lurker. I have learned so much from these boards. I have written to my mp and have started (tentatively) liking GC Facebook posts and tweets, thanks to posters like datun, who have articulated my thoughts far more eloquently than I ever could and given me the courage to speak out (albeit quietly). I just wish I could be hopeful that it will make a difference.

BatShite · 17/12/2017 14:24

Do you know why Mumsnet seems like a strange bubble to you? It's because women are allowed to say what they think, and discuss their concerns, in a way that is shut down everywhere else. This isn't an echo chamber and we can defend our position. This is much closer to what the majority of people think, we're just better informed.

Indeed

So it's okay that a woman on here expressing mainstream views feels like she is being attacked? Because we all know feminism don't care about how a person feels, it's about whether that person has XX chromosomes. Oh wait...

You can feel like you are being attacked all you like. The truth is, you are not being attacked. You are being asked to defend your views. And 'accidentally' finding a deleted tweet to prove how hateful feminists are...well..that alone proved you are not actually sincere in your 'I just want to understand' argument. The problems have been explained over and over again, but you still insist on seeing hate and twisting peoples posts beyond belief. So feel attacked all you like. TRAS feel attacked simply by people pointing out biology. MRAs feel attacked when people talk about male violence. Does not mean they actually are being attacked.

BatShite · 17/12/2017 14:29

They are straw men because they do not represent any argument against self ID

Do rape stats represent any argument against self-ID? Given self-ID means any male will have access to vulnerable females. Surely rape stats alone are a huge argument against it.

Oh, so much hate. How horrible. Bringing up the significant minority of male people who do attack females.

I genuinely do not understand how anyone who calls themself a feminist can be for self-ID. I would love for an actual argument to be put across by someone who calls themselves a feminist, but an argument does not actually ever come. Its all 'you big meanies' and misrepresenting what posters are actually saying.

This is about predatory males. Whether they ID as trans or not.

GuardianLions · 17/12/2017 14:33

Also saying "you make me feel bad" or "you are being mean" after not being able to present a compelling argument is a kind of derail.

How about getting back to the actual topic now?

BatShite · 17/12/2017 14:34

There are so many that they can be categorised. There are SIX sections in that website

I wonder how large that site would be now, if it had kept updating. Given there are more GC people daring to 'come out' with their views, and TRAs are going into overdrive with the (actual...not imagined like on here) hatred and threats. I barely use twitter, just to like and RT other peoples posts. I have been added to a 'block list' and receive on average 2 rape/death threats per week to my inbox (though I have had none this week. Which is quite odd). Just for retweeting. These rape threats really do show how much of a woman the person sending them are. because women go around threatening to rape other women with their lady penises. Of course.

Thermostatpolice · 17/12/2017 14:46

I can see why Debbie and perfectly might feel overwhelmed by the number of posts in response to theirs. And we all have RL stuff going on. So thanks for sticking with it thus far. I'm sorry that you feel insulted. But GC women are considered the bigots here. Most of us have experienced far worse than simple disagreement or accusations of sealioning on this topic.

This stood out to me with big flashing lights:

I just have faith that a transgender practitioner would show the same level of professionalism, respect and sensitivity as any other practitioner.

I spend a lot of time with practising Christians and hear "I have faith that..." regularly.

Virgin birth of a saviour and changing reproductive sex to reflect one's true self are both biological impossibilities that require faith to believe. As is a belief that X group will always behave responsibly in Y situation.

Faith is no basis for legislation. And forcibly imposing faith-based beliefs on others never goes well. I don't want faith-based beliefs to play a role in drafting laws.

Elendon · 17/12/2017 14:56

What is a transgender practitioner? Is this a medical term? Can I be one? Do you need to have a penis and be a trans woman in order to be a transgender practitioner?

Can someone please explain this? it might be my new career for 2018

Kimlek · 17/12/2017 15:16

I’ve written to my MP this morning (email) stating my opinion and asking for his. He’s a Tory male who toes the party line so I’m not very hopeful. It’s the first time I’ve ever written to an MP so thank you for encouraging me to stand up for my beliefs.

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