Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Another de-lurking. I'm debating writing to my MP, but I'm not sure I'm brave enough as it could jeopardise my career, and possibly my job.

Please do keep on with the patient explaining and lack of ad hominem attacks - i'ts admirable, I'm learning a lot and I'm an instinctive liberal who had automatically assumed that I would support trans rights. This thread (among others) has made me understand the distinction between trans people having rights (which of course they do), and women having their hard-won rights eroded.

Kudos to all the delurkers.
Remember, not being discriminated against =/= being given all the hard won rights of the group that is actually oppressed.

busyboysmum thank you for the link to the sage document. I’ve posted it on my FB and will discuss with friends. It’s a difficult issue but has to be discussed.

IrkThePurist shit, I’ve just realised what you’re saying. Damn! I don’t want to erode women’s rights or discriminate against trans people but thinking about it, example by example, it’s impossible. I can’t figure out how you can have one without the other. Although a 3rd space works, doesn’t it? To some extent.
Requesting a natal female midwife I guess is still discriminatory against a male midwife (which the U.K. has had since early 1980’s) and a trans.
Like datun said we need to consider all aspects case by case. I think it was Datun.

I want both - protect women’s rights but also not discriminate against trans.

I am also delurker. Until recently, if someone had asked if I fully supported trans rights I would have ‘Strongly Agreed’ (so possibly representative of the YouGov poll 10%?), because I (like many others) automatically lend support to groups known to experience prejudice, and men pretending to be women isn’t really harming anyone else, right? But then I came across the issue of self-ID and the GRA and saw how women raising legitimate concerns are being silenced with threats (from mostly men).

I sent the link below to a friend (who has two transwomen friends) and her response was ‘’I’m confused now about trans????’’. I also shared it with two friends who are nursing young babies (so little spare time and bigger priorities) and their responses were about how to challenge the proposals, they were shocked. Some people are lending their support to the GDA without really knowing what the issues are.

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/

I have always considered myself a feminist but I do not attend events or network, well that is changing, next month I am attending an event to discuss the GDA, the speakers are feminists and a transsexual. Thank you to all the feminists and concerned individuals who have bought this to my attention and thank you to the TRAs who have shown me how important feminism is and why all women and girls STILL need it. I had naively believed that all the hard work had been done, how very wrong of me.

So does everyone Kim

Kimlek
The third space option seems to be the perfect solution, doesnt it? Its the one I can support. It doesn't discriminate against anyone.

The biggest problem for me is that women (especially those who live in patriarchal cultures) need to be able to ask for natal female medical staff.
Some women still need a chaperone. We need to think of the rights of those women. Because they dont have a voice.

inherit titles reserved for men?

ha ha ha ha, the one thing that makes me think all this stuff is absolute bullshite is that transmen (even with a GRC) cannot inherit aristocratic titles reserved for men.

In a huge loophole, which makes a mockery of the "Transwomen are women' transmen are men."

Lemand - I think most of us were like this for a long time. And here's the thing - trans people can already change their legal gender. It is already illegal to discriminate against them or exclude them from spaces in almost all cases. So what we thought we were supporting is already the case.

What's being proposed is the wholesale destruction of the female sex as any kind of protected class and the criminalisation of women who wish to organise themselves as a sex in order to fight sexism, or even women who wish simply to associate in exclusively same sex spaces.

LangCleg if trans people can already change their legal gender and it is already illegal to discriminate and exclude trans people is this once they’ve lived as a trans for 2 years etc and have a GRC? It’s not yet just by identifying is it?
IF the identifying part is added to the Act do they still need a certificate? Who gives them this certificate please, now and in the immediate future? Thank you.

Hi there,

I am delurking too and have been thinking of a persuasive argument to friends and family that doesn't seem hateful. I totally agree with the TERF arguments but I think they might be unpalatable to the most kind hearted people who are not analysing in depth the implications of such changes.

When I try to breakdown why I feel uncomfortable with the GRA proposed changes I start with:

1. Define a woman. Self-identity is not sufficiently robust (in my view) to categorise a change in gender (Is it gender I mean here because what is the issue with women who want to present to the world in a sterotypically masculine way and vice versa - surely individuals can still feel okay about doing this without having to embark on a change in gender?)

1. Then, I think similar to other big changes that occur in a person's life (examples to varying degrees - abortion, IVF, divorce, recovering from addictions/abuse) there could be mutually agreeable guidance on gender dyphoria for adults who wish to identify as the sex they were not born into. For instance, 6 sessions with a psychologist to assist in a person's understanding of gender dysphoria, AGN, options and implications regarding hormones/surgery etc.

1. Followed by how can transpeople who want to identify as female have similar protected characteristics as women. And could women assist in this due to their experiences of requiring protection?

1. I think there will be LGBT allies out there who will understand the concerns about children experiencing gender dysphoria being influenced to change gender. I have for sometime had concerns how homophobic countries and right-wing people have no issue about children/adults transitioning as long as it means they are not gay. I think this sets us aside from the pearls clutching Daily Mail readers who do not want "men in dresses" changing next to their daughters.

I would stay clear of any bathroom/changing room debates (though I hear and believe some of the awful stories from Datun). I think single cubicles that are supervised are the way department stores, gyms and offices are going - rightly or wrongly. It will be up to business and organisations to make those changes so that women and trans people's privacy is respected. There is family changing in my gym whereby there is open plan areas for putting shoes and coats on but otherwise large cubicles where you (and the family) get changed. Then there is no open nudity.

Just a few of my muddled thoughts when trying to put this together. Barring the TRAs that are all about #nodebate there are many people out there who would be open to hearing a way in which a section of society is given parity to live their life (seeing as there is much distress about not being able to use the "right" toilets!) but women's rights are not removed.

I still haven't squared the circle of trans-people working in and accessing women-only spaces but could we not discuss this further with women to understand whether it is the presence of male genitalia that is threatening or whether there is a need to be treated/counselled by a person who has been through the same experience as them? Maybe I am being optimistic having more definition on what is means to be female that the AGN cohort would not progress to making biological changes and/or be content to be a male who identifies with the female gender.

Ahh sorry if I have been clumsy with my wordings, it's really hard to make sense of this

NotSupposedtobeHere

"Inherit titles reserved for men?

ha ha ha ha, the one thing that makes me think all this stuff is absolute bullshite is that transmen (even with a GRC) cannot inherit aristocratic titles reserved for men.

In a huge loophole, which makes a mockery of the "Transwomen are women' transmen are men."

I know, right? If transmen are actually men, then why aren't they deemed to be men in this case? They are either men or they are not, they can't be men with certain caveats that exclude them from literal male privilege. Because that makes them not-really-men.

It does show up how bonkers it all is.

Kimlek

You would still have to apply for a GRC but, instead of there being any gatekeeping or specific requirements to fulfil, you'd just fill in an official form and send it off. Under self-ID, getting a GRC would be pretty much the same as getting a passport.

Current requirements for a GRC:

you’re 18 or over
you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria (discomfort with your birth gender) - this is also called gender identity disorder or transsexualism
you’ve lived in your acquired gender for at least 2 years
you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life

Proposed requirements:

you’re 18 or over
you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life

I know, right? If transmen are actually men, then why aren't they deemed to be men in this case? They are either men or they are not, they can't be men with certain caveats that exclude them from literal male privilege. Because that makes them not-really-men.

This might just be the one thing that stops any amendments to the GRA. As the people voting this in, will have things that they don't want their daughters to get their hands on.

Its a false equivalence to say they will happen more with GRA self ID

Shall we try looking at this from a different angle?

Imagine that you are a predatory male (not trans, just a predator) who likes to record women using the toilet. Imagine that you were, at the moment, frequently foiled in your attempts to access women's toilets.

Now imagine that a law is passed stating that if you say that you are the opposite sex, then you just are. No surgery needed, no medical diagnosis, nothing. Furthermore, no certificate actually appears to need to be produced to access opposite-sex facilities. In fact, you hear people arguing that it is transphobic to question someone who 'appears' to be in the wrong toilet, because that person knows their 'gender identity' better than an onlooker.

Imagine that you start to read grovelling apologies from companies who have been accused of transphobia on Twitter, when refusing a man access to women's facilities. You then see these companies declaring that they have now changed their policy (as in the recent TopShop example).

What do you, as our hypothetical predatory man, conclude from this? Do you think it is reasonable to assume that, in a climate such as this, that women and companies would be much less likely to challenge you in the women's toilets? And that this would therefore give you much easier and more frequent access to unsuspecting women and girls?

And as our hypothetical predatory man, wouldn't you take advantage of it?

The biggest problem for me is that women (especially those who live in patriarchal cultures) need to be able to ask for natal female medical staff. Some women still need a chaperone. We need to think of the rights of those women. Because they dont have a voice.

This is a huge sticking point for me too Irk . To remove or inhibit those rights would exclude them even further than they are already excluded, and you are absolutely right, they don't have a voice. When you weigh up 'I feel erased, deeply distressed and discriminated against that I cannot be treated as the biological sex I identify as in all ways without exception while giving/receiving health care' against 'I can no longer access health care' then its clear the current protections and exemptions in the system for biological women must be maintained. There need to be other ways to support and address the issues trans people face without removing rights from other vulnerable people.

LangCleg thank you for clarifying. So do trans people need to carry these certificates around with them at all times? And if asked to show or prove their gender this is deemed ok and not transphobic? If not already, as blanchefleur suggests it’ll become transphobic.

Apologies bold fail for blancfleur

And now incorrect spelling. Apologies

The rights and needs of vulnerable women is my primary concern too.

If the new bill is passed, and the GRA amended, the people most severely affected will be the voiceless.

Women in prison, one third of whom are care leavers. Women with learning disability, who will probably just stop accessing health care services if they're peopled by people who don't understand women's needs. Women with dementia, who instinctively respond angrily to a male bodied person attending to their personal care. Women who have been abused, who would rather not receive intimate medical care at all than from a male bodied person. Girls with low self-esteem, who are vulnerable to cult like suggestions and influence. Girls and women who are already socialised into being submissive and to please other people.

They're the people that this Act will kick in the teeth again.

if trans people can already change their legal gender and it is already illegal to discriminate and exclude trans people is this once they’ve lived as a trans for 2 years etc and have a GRC? It’s not yet just by identifying is it?

Trans people say this is an humiliating & intrusive process. I can see their point - but legal & medical intrusion into women's lives because of their reproductive role is normal for any woman who has a child in this country, or who seeks an abortion, or who is raped, or who seeks treatment/surgery to do with her reproductive role or gynaecological health.

F4tty

Thanks for your post. picking up on the point you make about gender neutral/unisex facilities as the way forward. My problem with this as a model yo aim for in all circumstances is that communal changing rooms are one of the few places where young children (of both sexes) and young women actually get to see real women's bodies. Even before I became aware of the current Issues I was concerned that the move away from communal changing was a real loss, with young women being left with no counterbalance to the increasing pornification of young people's lives.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun I never took the time to respond to your OP: Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

I feel sad and weary too. Many many women and transwomen are feeling the same. And we ARE pitted against each other by people like Owen Jones who as a bloke with no children has very little at stake in this debate.

I feel incredibly heartened by Liz McInnes's statement today:

I don’t agree with @OwenJones84 on trans rights and I think the people making the decisions should be women and the trans community. I don’t feel threatened by his “You will be judged by history” rhetoric - what’s needed is a sensible debate.

McInnes is an MP and one of only a very few who has spoken up on this. She is absolutely right, we need a sensible debate around this, just as we do with any proposed change in legislation. That debate is starting to happen despite the efforts of transactivists to shut it down.

There is a happy medium to be found, one that suits transexual transwomen and women. We kind of have it already in the current GRA and EA. I think the EA could do with tweaking to bring it up to date with the current definition of 'gender reassignment' (we need to decide exactly which group of people should be afforded protection) and to ensure that the exemptions for female-only spaces and services are actually useable without risking being taken to court.

There is not a happy medium to be found if we also try to meet the transactivists' demands because they are not interested in any compromise and they do not care about the wellbeing of either women or transexuals. They don't want women's spaces protected and they think woman-hating rapists should be moved to women's prisons if they ID as women.

Thank you for starting this discussion

Even before I became aware of the current Issues I was concerned that the move away from communal changing was a real loss, with young women being left with no counterbalance to the increasing pornification of young people's lives
This is a really good point