Do women have the right to share their spaces with trans people if they wish to?

[StigOfThePlump]

I think this is an interesting question and one which I haven't seen asked before.

A lot of posters on here when discussing the GRA seem to align women's rights with fighting for women-only spaces. If, hypothetically, the majority of women were to be content to share their spaces with trans people is this also their right?

I don't mean 'anybody who self identifies as trans', I'm talking about genuine card carrying trans people and those who really want to live as their chosen sex (not those who want to prey on women).

I think the majority of women don't have a problem with "genuine card carrying trans people". I wouldn't give a toss personally, probably wouldn't even notice. But for me, my interest in this issue has never been about "genuine card carrying trans people".

The question is not answerable because there is no way of knowing what the majority of women would prefer.

Best to stick with the presumed 'over my dead body' attitude, since women have never actually taken to the barricades to protest against sex segregated facilities.

The thing is, as math says, there is no overall answer. A third space is needed.

You mean if some women are okay with mixed sex everything because that's what it is. Not gender neutral, mixed sex. Even if I was okay then I know that my religious friend wouldn't be, or my friend who was abused, or some girl who hasn't been born yet.

there are lots of women that don't see the point in women's sports, women represented in positions of power etc but they don't have the right to take that away from all women.

Interesting question. I think that even if the majority of women was okay with sharing spaces it still shouldn't happen. So long as even a small minority of women are not okay with female and transwomen sharing, female spaces should remain female.

So no, I don't think that a majority of women would have the right to share female spaces with non-predatory, card carrying transwomen.

I've noticed that 'card carrying' transsexual transwomen tend not to demand access to female spaces in the same aggressive way as transgenderists. It's already a hypothetical question, but perhaps also moot.

How do you tell if someone is a 'genuine, card carrying' trans person though?

Personally I am uncomfortable getting changed in front of anyone

I would pity the people who abuse the system then confronted with having to view me and my fat arse.

I also have nothing against those trans people just quietly going about their lives who literally are just trying on clothes or whatever. I'll share a space with them

That's my choice though and I speak for me and for when I'm on my own.

But

I have 2 dds

And as much as the faffing chatting and taking forever to get changed in the group change at swimming, annoys me, as much as it drives me bonkers to go in after 20 mins and see dd1 is still not remotely ready and neither is the friend she's talking to who's mum must he fed up waiting too, the idea of her not being able to do that is heartbreaking.

So ultimately no. I don't think they should be mixed sex.

The situations aren't mirror images of one another, though, so the question is ill posed. The point is about women's choices - "I personally choose not to have male bodies in spaces where I'm naked", "I personally am okay with male bodies in spaces where I'm naked." It's the old traditional JS Mill/ Bentham distinction between positive and negative liberties. The second choice can only be made in a public space (as opposed to one's own home) if one is prepared to infringe on the rights of the other group of women to make their choice. Whereas presumably the "okay with them in shared space" group are just that - okay with it. They don't actively want it, wouldn't feel actively hard done by if it wasn't facilitated, they just don't care one way or the other.

As the slogan on the Midwest Teen Sex Show puts it: "No trumps yes."

I don't mean 'anybody who self identifies as trans', I'm talking about genuine card carrying trans people and those who really want to live as their chosen sex (not those who want to prey on women).

You walk into a ladies toilet. You see a man. How do you know whether he is a card carrying genuine trans person or a perv?

What's your interest in all this anyway op?

You're clearly not an ally. So what? Trollin' for lols? Winding people up? What?

I will just turn this round slightly

If my dad would be mortified to get changed in front of a 14 year old girl then its not up to you to oet her pop in because you dont mind

The question appears to be:

Thinking about a hypothetical situation different to the one women are concerned by, wouldn't things be better if women were just kinder?

Even the very small number of “card carrying” trans women who have genital surgery usually are obviously stillmale. That will not be OK for a lot of women.

As long as one woman objects, I will defend her right to single sex space.

I suppose the question is, even if some women are happy with mixed sex facilities, do single sex facilities disadvantage those women in any way?

This reminds me of the other perennial question men come on here to ask.

If a prostitute was entirely happy with being a prostitute, highly paid, fully respected and admired in society, and thoroughly enjoyed every single second of the stream of grubby strangers, then would it be okay?

I probably have shared a loo with a transwomen over the years. I tend not to really notice "women" in the ladies and I would imagine they did not make a huge fuss about being there so zero attention was paid.

That said the rise of the look at me I am a woman I dare you to say otherwise trans group that have sprouted up seem to want to make women uncomfortable. That is not acceptable.

If, hypothetically, the majority of women were to be content to share their spaces with trans people is this also their right?
Using the word ‘right’ is ambiguous. It may be a right for those women to express equanimity, even welcome, should they wish. I can’t see why that confers a right to demand trans people in their space. It seems an odd thing to demand as a right.

‘No, sorry, there isn’t a trans woman in there, I refuse to use the facility’?!?

I’m fairly calm about certain mixed sex facilities. Mixed sex loos with shared sinks, where the cubicle is fully enclosed and lockable? No problem. If a male is disgusted at me washing a moon cup in the sink, that’s his problem.

But that is my own feeling. And I’m empathic enough to recognise that not all females feel the same. I stand completely beside those females in solidarity. If a female tells me she doesn’t want a male to share her sex-segregated space, that becomes my fight as well.

And toilets (as described) are my line, and even then only mixed sex toilets in my lefty liberal, security-guarded university campus - I wouldn’t use mixed sex in a train station late at night. I’m not sharing a communal changing room ever.

So most women don’t mind and you think the minority of trans should trump the minority of women (which will still be larger)?

I don't mean 'anybody who self identifies as trans', I'm talking about genuine card carrying trans people and those who really want to live as their chosen sex (not those who want to prey on women)
And to reiterate other posters, the new proposals will not allow discrimination between your options.

Asking women to make a distinction that they can’t, in a hypothetical situation that is impossible is just more tedious intellectual masturbation, that men can afford to do because it won’t affect them.

Stig I know you’re male. Do you have a female partner? A daughter? A sister? Your Mum?

Imagine women you love, women at risk by sheer dint of being women, telling you that they don’t want to share. That it scares them. That they don’t want a male conducting a gynae exam. That they don’t want a male counselling them after a rape.

Do you tell them ‘Well, most women don’t mind so you’ll have to get in with it, darling’?

It’s all part and parcel of the same thing.

As a pp says, it is likely that at some time we have unwittingly shared a public toilet etc with a trans person and not noticed, or perhaps suspected in a few cases. I would guess that those would be 'card carrying' ones, that is post surgery etc, just getting on with their lives. This has been going on for years now and have never heard of any women objecting. The current crop of aggressive attention-seeking individuals such as Brian/Katie (another thread) is a different matter though and I imagine that the genuine trans women, who have been quietly going about their business all this time, must also find it disturbing and worrying.