Do women have the right to share their spaces with trans people if they wish to?

[StigOfThePlump]

I think this is an interesting question and one which I haven't seen asked before.

A lot of posters on here when discussing the GRA seem to align women's rights with fighting for women-only spaces. If, hypothetically, the majority of women were to be content to share their spaces with trans people is this also their right?

I don't mean 'anybody who self identifies as trans', I'm talking about genuine card carrying trans people and those who really want to live as their chosen sex (not those who want to prey on women).

starfish

Yy

They have pretty much killed it for everyone now haven't they.

All those that went unnoticed before face being called out or tied in with the TAs

If the bill doesn't go through people are still going to be on the look out and possibly more likely to call it out

It leaves everyone worse off

If women wanted the 'right' to unisex spaces to share with strange men, they'd be fighting for that right.

As it is, women have said make 3 spaces; male, female and unisex. Or make the mens spaces unisex and leave the women's spaces for women. But trans activists take that as an insult, not a solution.

I suspect you haven't seen it asked before OP because it's a stupid and unimaginative question. It's also a hypothetical male perspective thought experiment the likes of which feminists are generally very irritated by.

"women, I want you to think about a situation that is completely different to your reality - in that situation would you consider having women's rights eroded a right women should have?"

Um, no I wouldn't. What a ridiculous question. Erosion of women's rights is erosion of women's rights, no matter how much men like to try to spin the eroding of our rights as us gaining rights.

What an utter waste of women's thinking time other than for us to ponder on a) why men want to impose trans dogma on us in any way they can and b) how annoying men's thought experiments about women's rights generally are.

If there was a gender neutral third space then all the women comfortable sharing could go there. Problem solved.

Why not create a space for everyone in addition? Then let people vote with their feet rather than enforce things that people don't concent too? Use the traditional male/female space or the everyone space. After all not all trans people identify as male or female but something other. I would suspect the everyone space would be very little used by cis people and may still be a bit of an insult in terms of maybe feeling like a second class citizen. But on the ballence what are the other options? How can you protect the feelings of everyone and to what extent does the wishes of the vast majority trump the 1% of trans people?

Or just use a system of individual spaces like a lot of swimming pools have or some of the gender nutral toilets I have seen. But then if the majority of people prefer shared sex based spaces one could argue to what extent should we take that away to support the genuine feeling of 1% of the population?

Beachcomber

I truly believe they think they are unique. Not realising they are walking in the footsteps of dozens of men, who all pose the same questions.

If we could just put this fictitious spin on it, how about that? What about now? Now?

erm? if someone has completely transitioned and changed their name etc they would technically be a woman anyway wouldnt they? So they would have access to female only spaces. How would you ever tell? You cant go around asking all slightly masculine looking women if they used to have a penis and if they did could they please leave the area.......

I have a trans friend and she looks more feminine than I do but she still had a penis. No one has ever stopped her in toilets or changing rooms when ive been with her because I assume no one ever realised. These places usually have individual cubicles so no one sees anyones elses genitals anyway

@Stig
The idea that women and girls have safe spaces is pure male propaganda and male self hype.

What women and girls really have are cages where men have them cornered in

The question was ultimately about the point at which group consensus overrides individual beliefs I suppose. For example, even if 99% of women voted to launch Katie Hopkins into space it wouldn't happen.

Self ID is a huge threat IMO but I think genuine concerns are being somewhat thrown out with the bathwater when a minority of women (same old culprits each time) revert to talking about 'women in dresses' and trying to think of clever ways to subvert trans people's language to annoy them. I'm wondering what will happen if the general public end up swaying towards being trans inclusive, which is only really being helped by the aforementioned people who turn it into a slagging match and are increasingly causing anybody who contests self ID to be seen as a transphobe (pretty beneficial for people like the much hated Lily Madigan and co.

Even if I don't mind sharing personal space with men, I am not so selfish that I can't see why other women would have a problem with it.

erm? if someone has completely transitioned and changed their name etc they would technically be a woman anyway wouldnt they?

No. They wouldn’t. Unless your definition of the word woman has changed from adult human female?

In terms of people who pass. I really don’t know what you expect women to say? If you don’t know, you can’t say anything.

What has that got to do with removing women’s sex based protection in law?

Perhaps spaces need to split along the lines of people with penises and people without penises.

Ridiculous that if has come to this but why can't women's spaces be respected.

I used to work at a swimming pool and I was always amazed that mostly adult women would change in the open areas and a lot of girls would change in the cubicles.

You forget but girl's are very conscious of their bodies growing up and it is so wrong yo put a man with a penis into that area.

Actually I remember st swimming lessons, I would get talking in the changing rooms and my dad would have to go and find a woman to come and see where I had got to when I took ages. How is it that my dad had the decency to nog even put his head you d the door to call my name but other penis havers think they have the right to fully utilise this space?

AsMen

What women and girls really have are cages where men have them cornered in

Really? Last time I checked young women were outperforming young men both financially and educationally and women spent the majority of money in the world. This year I we saw a record number of female MPs and women attending university too.

I agree it's horrid that 0.00000625% of women are killed each week but I do believe it's getting better for the other 99%.

Hmm let's see.
If the majority of women are content not to vote in an election, is it OK to deny the vote to all women?

We don't remove rights on the basis that they aren't exercised constantly by 100% of individuals.

A woman has the right not to exercise her right to a same sex space.
Many women have the right not to exercise their rights to a same sex space.
All women have the right not to exercise their rights to a same sex space.

But society does not get to remove ALL women's rights to single sex space on the basis that some women don't care about those rights.

Women will never, en masses, voluntarily sacrifice their rights to same sex space.

It will never ever happen. Ever. Sorry about that. Which is why in the years that this debate has raged, no-one has ever proposed ASKING ALL WOMEN how they would vote on the subject. It is completely and utterly obvious what women would choose if allowed a voice. Even the handmaidens who protest so loudly would, in a secret ballot, vote for same sex space. Their loud verbal declarations for men in women's spaces are code for 'please don't hurt me' and their secret ballot would represent their vote to safely ensure that couldn't happen.

You want to remove rights from women I'm afraid you're going to have to do it forcibly, unpleasantly and visibly against our will. It will be ugly and obvious. We're not going to helpfully abrogate you of responsibility for this.
No amount of hopeful hypothetical debate will reach the desired end of getting women to pretend that men can be women like them, nor will it make us deny that wanting recognition of our biology and existence as completely distinct from men's is a fundamental human right.

You're going to have to park your wishful thinking that you can be absolved of responsibility by us turkeys voting for our own Christmas. It's never going to happen.

This is one of those questions which simply misses the point.

It's not about what a majority want or are happy about.
Nor is it a woman's right to share a space with whom she likes. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a right is. A right is about the self and not of others.

Rights are about protecting the vulnerable in a society who are not always able to voice their problem, concern or issue which might be a threat to them in someway.

How is it a threat to a woman if she is not able to share with a transwomen? And why does this freely made CHOICE share trump the concerns of women in situations where they don't have that freedom to be able to make a choice because of things like previous trauma or religion which might make them suffer?

Sorry but I think the question is deliberately misleading and trying to suggest that if the majority are ok then that's ok and the vulnerable should just suck it up and ignore their genuine rights. It's about your ability to choose not the practical application of choosing.

but I do believe it's getting better for the other 99%.

Excellent. It’s a good job we have feminists to thank for that then, isn’t it?

Quite evidently, what they do works. So let them get on with it.

@Stig

"What women and girls really have are cages where men have them cornered in"

Are women and girls safe to walk the streets without being attacked by men?

I mean if men weren't a problem, why would need these things called
"safe spaces?"

and why do men advise females not to dress too provocatively around men, and dont get drunk around them?
If men are not a problem?

All this advice from men is explaining exactly how men's Kultures are cages where men have women & girls cornered in..

Do this or else you know what will happen to you?
The wolves will be on your back tearing into you the very first chance they get!
A men?

Well, if I was speaking just about me personally, then I don't have too much of a problem with sharing most public bathrooms etc with a transwoman. However, I would feel uncomfortable in certain situations if a man/group of men was hanging around in the women's bathrooms (not necessarilly a transwoman - how am I to know how that man might identify?) especially if it was just me and them in there. I want to retain the right to report men hanging around in a place like this to staff, and I want staff to be able to follow up my concerns without fear of the man in the loo suing them.

I also have zero issue with being intimately examined by a gynacologist, midwife, dr etc who is either a transwoman or a man.
But I have never been a victim of serious sexual assault or domestic violence.
I feel able to describe embarrassing, intimate medical problems to either a male or female GP - but that is not the case for all women and girls.
Just because I feel comfortable being examined by a man or transwoman, many many women don't for a number of reasons and I don't think that these women should be prevented from requesting a biologically female professional in these circumstances,.

Really? Last time I checked young women were outperforming young men both financially and educationally and women spent the majority of money in the world. This year I we saw a record number of female MPs and women attending university too.

I agree it's horrid that 0.00000625% of women are killed each week but I do believe it's getting better for the other 99%.

Ah. Here we have it. The OP is telling us very clearly what his position is.

That posts reads as "women have got it good enough now, in fact things have gone too far" - this is an MRA position (which perhaps explains the OP's interest in trans ideology which is of course an anti-woman and antifeminist dogma and an MRA's political wet dream).

I said nothing other than things are getting better for women. My female friends seem to agree.

I said nothing other than things are getting better for women. My female friends seem to agree.

Really?

2 women a week are killed in this country by their partner/ex.

Female babies are dumped in their hundreds.
FGM is still practised and supported in many countries.

Girls as young as 9 are married off to middle aged men.

Women are traded like goods to meet the sexual demands if men.

Women are beaten/stoned/lashed for commiting crimes like going out alone/driving a car and riding a bike.

Women are raped in such numbers daily that I cannot bring myself to add up the figures country by country.

Women are still dying in child birth.

But yeah women have never had it so good

Do some women have the right to introduce men into women-only spaces, making other women afraid, uncomfortable, or unable to use the space at all, just because those original women don't mind the men being in there?

That's a no from me.

I agree it's horrid that 0.00000625% of women are killed each week but I do believe it's getting better for the other 99%.

Curiously, using all those decimal places has the effect of making it seem like you don’t think it’s horrid at all.

I agree it's horrid that 0.00000625% of women are killed each week

Yeah, OP. Of course the above says nothing other than "things are getting better for women"

We are not fools. We are used to men coming on here and minimizing VAWAG. We know what it looks like. Perhaps you think posting the above was clever. Feminists don't think minimizing male violence is clever, they think it is misogynistic.